You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
#326
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
Posts: 29,530
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
47 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
ah magnets, like how the same magnetic poles repel each other. It's probably something like a cylinder with like-pole magnets at each end, in its most simple form.
#328
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
this is at least two years old, and has been in development for over 20......
30 seconds of googling would tell you what you evidently didn't already know.
#329
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
Psychoboy, you're car is an outlier using air ride. The VAST majority of lowered cars on here, and any other car on the street, are on a typical shock/spring setup(lowering spring, coilover, w/e). You really can't make an arguement when it is based on that type of suspension. There are limitations with this, plain and simple.
how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?
as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?
and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.
#330
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
please explain this.
how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?
as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?
and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.
how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?
as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?
and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.
Likewise damping rates are not similar.
Plus every time you raise or drop your car you change the properties (pressure + temperature) of the gas, which affects consistency. I'm certain leaks are a constant issue, that also affects ride.
So the two, especially in the context of a lowrider vs a car on quality coilovers, are not comparable. I live in NYC where the roads are awful... that Lude wouldn't make it a mile thru BK w/o punching its oil pan on something. And while it was mobile you would either have to drive at 5 MPH, or you'd be scraping on the ground all the time. If a car can't be driven here IMO it has a shitty suspension setup... so regardless of what you say or have built, just the fact that that Lude has .5" of suspension/chassis travel makes it unusable. You can't carry ****/people in it. You can't drive fast in it. You can't drive over shitty streets with it. How is it a "good" suspension setup?
#331
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
please explain this.
how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?
as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?
and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.
how does a compressible volume of air operate differently than a spring?
as the piston goes thru its stroke, air is forced thru orifices on both sides of the piston....how is that different than the operation of a shock?
and, before the car got on air, it was on springs...as were the two before it. suspension compliance ride was very similar on all three cars, as were ground interference concerns.
I guess my point I was saying by your car is an outlier being on air ride is that the ride quality(title/topic of thread) differs vastly than what a shock/spring suspension offers.
For example: take 2 exact same cars, say 5th gen civics since they are so popular here. One with air ride and one with coilover suspension. Both set at the exact same height.(let's say tucking some tire to fit the slammed title/topic of thread). To do this with the coilovers, you'll NEED atleast500lbs/in springs and some mighty good shocks in order for your suspension to still function properly. Will these two cars offer similar ride quality? Will air ride be relatively smoother? Or will the coilovers be smoother?
I've never dealt with air ride, but my best guessed answer is going to be the coilover suspension car is going to have much worse ride quality. Thus reinforcing the title/topic of this thread and proving your car(and cars on air ride) would be exceptions.
BTW, I've had 450/550 rates with Koni sports and about a finger gap between tire/fender before on my civic. I currently have 650/800 rates with revalved Konis and same ride height. Not a SINGLE person who has ever ridden in my car has ever even came close to saying my car rode even remotely smooth. To drop it any more would just make the ride quality worse. Again, reinforcing the title/topic of thread.
#332
Ek Forever y0!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Beating people with a stick, GA
Posts: 16,712
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
Lol, it's hard to imagine driving 650/800 on the street.
350/350 is getting old though, I'm ready for something like 550/450
350/350 is getting old though, I'm ready for something like 550/450
#333
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
I had 300/200 + Koni Yellows on my Accord and it rode + handled perfect
Was nowhere near slammed but was much more enjoyable.
#334
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
#335
Ek Forever y0!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Beating people with a stick, GA
Posts: 16,712
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
My shocks are 5 months old. Car rides great. With 350+ rates in the back you just notice every bump in the road. The car is by no means bouncy or uncomfortable.
#336
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
which "typical suspension spring" were you referring to? the linear rate springs so often sold as performance upgrades?
thank to the constant weight of the car and constant size of the piston, and the variable pressure based volume, the spring rate stays fairly constant thru most of its range of operation. the instant rates are progressive, but the static rates of each height thru the stoke stays very flat, until the limits of the stroke are reached.
since the limits of the stroke are intentionally removed from the limits of the chassis, i rarely run in the margins, unless i'm intending to. when i am running in the margins, i expect a lower quality ride (either from bottoming out the car, or topping out the cylinders)
Likewise damping rates are not similar.
the air orifices control how quickly the rod moves, in compression and in rebound, much like the oil orifices in a shock.
do you have some information that indicates fluid dynamics change depending on the application? sure, the gas holes are bigger (and the pressures lower), but the fluid doesn't stop moving just because it's damping a gas spring instead of a metal one.
Plus every time you raise or drop your car you change the properties (pressure + temperature) of the gas, which affects consistency.
I'm certain leaks are a constant issue, that also affects ride.
leaks result in height loss. as noted before, static rates are largely unchanged across the stroke.
So the two, especially in the context of a lowrider vs a car on quality coilovers, are not comparable.
I live in NYC where the roads are awful... that Lude wouldn't make it a mile thru BK w/o punching its oil pan on something.
And while it was mobile you would either have to drive at 5 MPH, or you'd be scraping on the ground all the time.
If a car can't be driven here IMO it has a shitty suspension setup...
so regardless of what you say or have built, just the fact that that Lude has .5" of suspension/chassis travel makes it unusable.
You can't carry ****/people in it.
You can't drive fast in it.
You can't drive over shitty streets with it.
How is it a "good" suspension setup?
because it performs as expected, when expected?
because it lends itself to tuning on the fly or with the turn of a handle?
#337
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
i'm asking you to further develop that theory.
I guess my point I was saying by your car is an outlier being on air ride is that the ride quality(title/topic of thread) differs vastly than what a shock/spring suspension offers.
For example: take 2 exact same cars, say 5th gen civics since they are so popular here. One with air ride and one with coilover suspension. Both set at the exact same height.(let's say tucking some tire to fit the slammed title/topic of thread). To do this with the coilovers, you'll NEED atleast500lbs/in springs and some mighty good shocks in order for your suspension to still function properly.
do you mean "prevent the car from bottoming out" or "prevent the suspension from bottoming out" or "provide the desired ride compliance"?
Will these two cars offer similar ride quality? Will air ride be relatively smoother? Or will the coilovers be smoother?
I've never dealt with air ride, but my best guessed answer is going to be the coilover suspension car is going to have much worse ride quality. Thus reinforcing the title/topic of this thread and proving your car(and cars on air ride) would be exceptions.
I've never dealt with air ride, but my best guessed answer is going to be the coilover suspension car is going to have much worse ride quality. Thus reinforcing the title/topic of this thread and proving your car(and cars on air ride) would be exceptions.
since air and metal/oil function similarly in this situation, it is easy to assume there is a metal/oil solution that provides the same functionality as air (tho it might not be as simple as bolting on some piece of advice from people who aren't actually working on the car)
BTW, I've had 450/550 rates with Koni sports and about a finger gap between tire/fender before on my civic. I currently have 650/800 rates with revalved Konis and same ride height. Not a SINGLE person who has ever ridden in my car has ever even came close to saying my car rode even remotely smooth. To drop it any more would just make the ride quality worse.
because of the loss of ground clearance?
because of suspension interference (internal or external)?
you aren't changing the springs, you aren't changing the damping rate. the compliance of your suspension doesn't change just because it's in a new location (everything else being equal)
Again, reinforcing the title/topic of thread.
#338
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA, United States
Posts: 7,539
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
Depending on design, you should be able to get suspension position feedback from it, allowing all kinds of computer controlled adjustment possibilities since the spring rate and ride height can be dynamically adjusted, independently of each other even.
psychoboy, you pretty much need to let this one go. What really makes you the outlier is that, in your mind, hitting the chassis on the pavement doesn't count against ride quality. In a technical sense, I'll agree, that the ground isn't part of the suspension's role in ride quality. However, technicalities don't matter when either way your head hits the ceiling on occasion.
Think of it this way, would your mother find the ride quality of your car acceptable? Or would she complain about a "rough ride" when sparks fly as the chassis slams into the pavement? And if so, how is that really any different than how she would complain about the roughness of my nearly intolerably stiff linear springs that don't bottom out anything?
#340
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
define "still function properly".
do you mean "prevent the car from bottoming out" or "prevent the suspension from bottoming out" or "provide the desired ride compliance"?
do you mean "prevent the car from bottoming out" or "prevent the suspension from bottoming out" or "provide the desired ride compliance"?
Like the title states: slam your car, you give up ride quality(high spring rates and agressive shocks to handle them and the ride height).
it doesn't reinforce the title, it refutes it. the title is black and white, your exceptions introduce gray.
since air and metal/oil function similarly in this situation, it is easy to assume there is a metal/oil solution that provides the same functionality as air (tho it might not be as simple as bolting on some piece of advice from people who aren't actually working on the car)
since air and metal/oil function similarly in this situation, it is easy to assume there is a metal/oil solution that provides the same functionality as air (tho it might not be as simple as bolting on some piece of advice from people who aren't actually working on the car)
What we ARE arguing is that with a typical shock/spring suspension, being slammed will reduce ride quality. PERIOD. Like I said above, you are an exception. If you want, you should make another thread saying "You CAN ride slammed AND have a SMOOTH ride with AIR RIDE".
why?
because of the loss of ground clearance?
because of suspension interference (internal or external)?
you aren't changing the springs, you aren't changing the damping rate. the compliance of your suspension doesn't change just because it's in a new location (everything else being equal)
because of the loss of ground clearance?
because of suspension interference (internal or external)?
you aren't changing the springs, you aren't changing the damping rate. the compliance of your suspension doesn't change just because it's in a new location (everything else being equal)
When I first got my 450/550 setup, I "slammed" the car for a photoshoot. Some on here probably don't even consider this to be extremely low...
I quickly noticed that even over slight bumps/dips that I was hitting the bump stops up front. And that's with 450/550 springs! That's pretty stiff already. So, if I left the ride height as it was in the picture, I would be hitting the bump stops a lot which results in NOT HAVING A SMOOTH RIDE(or a well performaning one). For street driving and racing, I raised it up to about a finger gap and put extended top hats on the car. No more hitting the bump stops but because the car still sat fairly low I NEEDED those rates to prevent bottoming out. Even when the car was raised, the ride quality was still VERY rough because of the stiff springs.
and I DID change the springs. I used 450/550 Eibach springs for about a year. Then I decided to change the springs for 650/800 Eibach springs. In order to use such stiff springs, I had to have my Koni's revavled(by TrueChoice) so they would not blow out and do their job. I've been on this setup for 2+ years. Sitting at a finger gap, the ride is extremely rough on the streets. In absolutely no way could this ride ever be considered smooth.
If you change your ride height from one point to another WITHOUT any interference of the bump stops, then generally ride quality won't change much,l if at all. But when you drop a car more and more, spring rates/shocks being the same, you raise the chances of hitting/riding the bump stops which reduces ride quality. Also, there is a point when you are TOO low and you screw up the geometry of your suspension which DOES affect ride quality and most definitely performance. Look at the RoadRace/Autocross/TimeAttack section on H-T, the vast majority of those cars aren't slammed or dumped to the ground, for good reason.
dunno about that, but it does reinforce my first post in this thread almost two years ago.
#342
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
psychoboy, you pretty much need to let this one go. What really makes you the outlier is that, in your mind, hitting the chassis on the pavement doesn't count against ride quality. In a technical sense, I'll agree, that the ground isn't part of the suspension's role in ride quality. However, technicalities don't matter when either way your head hits the ceiling on occasion.
Think of it this way, would your mother find the ride quality of your car acceptable? Or would she complain about a "rough ride" when sparks fly as the chassis slams into the pavement? And if so, how is that really any different than how she would complain about the roughness of my nearly intolerably stiff linear springs that don't bottom out anything?
i dunno, your springs are stiffer than anything i would drive my mom around in. in fact, i think your springs are stiffer than anything i would drive myself around in that wasn't on a track...and even then i have to wonder.
if riding the bumpstops results in loss of tire control and poor ride, then how does running springs that are all but bumpstops help?
#343
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
I think you are looking way too far into when I say outlier. There is no theory to develop lol. Outlier, different, uncommon, exception, etc... take your pick, all the same. Your car had an air ride suspension. How many cars on Honda-Tech are using air ride? How many modified suspension cars in general use air ride? Like 5-10% maybe? That's what I mean by your car is an outlier when it comes to riding slammed and having a relatively smooth ride. The vast MAJORITY of lowered cars use a typical shock/spring setup.
my suspension operates in the same fashion as yours. except mine isn't harsh (probably because the effective rates are lower).
looked at from another angle: you drive from NYC to NOLA. I fly that route instead. we're both got the same job done, but we used different methods.
the method of travel might be an outlier, the destination result isn't.
but your suggestion is that my suspension AND my result are both outliers, that prove the thread title false.
my contention that there is a non-outlier (steel and oil) method to achieve my results...which further proves the black and white thread title incorrect (or at the least, overly generalized)
Your suspension is supposed to absorb the imperfections in the road, obviously. When you slam a car with a typical shock/spring setup, you run the risk of bottoming out(either on the bump stop or, if you're stupid and not using a bump stop to slam your car, internally in the shock). Riding the bump stops is NOT ideal. When you do this, your car "skips" over bumps and imperfections in the road, REDUCING grip and performance and also reducing ride quality. So in order for your suspension to still do its job at such a low ride height, you NEED to use stiff springs to keep your car from riding the bump stops and allow your suspension to absorb what it can.
You can go pretty low with some of the double-wish bone suspension cars, but no matter what, the lower you go, the stiffer the spring you'll need.
Like the title states: slam your car, you give up ride quality(high spring rates and agressive shocks to handle them and the ride height).
I don't think anyone, esp me, is arguing HOW air ride works and/or how similar/dissimilar it's function is compared to shock/springs.
What we ARE arguing is that with a typical shock/spring suspension, being slammed will reduce ride quality. PERIOD. Like I said above, you are an exception. If you want, you should make another thread saying "You CAN ride slammed AND have a SMOOTH ride with AIR RIDE".
I use my car for AutoX. I had 450/550 rates so my car would handle better. What I inadvertantly found out is how low I could actually go with the car before it defeated the purpose of having good handling.
When I first got my 450/550 setup, I "slammed" the car for a photoshoot. Some on here probably don't even consider this to be extremely low...
I quickly noticed that even over slight bumps/dips that I was hitting the bump stops up front. And that's with 450/550 springs! That's pretty stiff already. So, if I left the ride height as it was in the picture, I would be hitting the bump stops a lot which results in NOT HAVING A SMOOTH RIDE(or a well performaning one). For street driving and racing, I raised it up to about a finger gap and put extended top hats on the car. No more hitting the bump stops but because the car still sat fairly low I NEEDED those rates to prevent bottoming out. Even when the car was raised, the ride quality was still VERY rough because of the stiff springs.
and I DID change the springs. I used 450/550 Eibach springs for about a year. Then I decided to change the springs for 650/800 Eibach springs. In order to use such stiff springs, I had to have my Koni's revavled(by TrueChoice) so they would not blow out and do their job. I've been on this setup for 2+ years. Sitting at a finger gap, the ride is extremely rough on the streets. In absolutely no way could this ride ever be considered smooth.
When I first got my 450/550 setup, I "slammed" the car for a photoshoot. Some on here probably don't even consider this to be extremely low...
I quickly noticed that even over slight bumps/dips that I was hitting the bump stops up front. And that's with 450/550 springs! That's pretty stiff already. So, if I left the ride height as it was in the picture, I would be hitting the bump stops a lot which results in NOT HAVING A SMOOTH RIDE(or a well performaning one). For street driving and racing, I raised it up to about a finger gap and put extended top hats on the car. No more hitting the bump stops but because the car still sat fairly low I NEEDED those rates to prevent bottoming out. Even when the car was raised, the ride quality was still VERY rough because of the stiff springs.
and I DID change the springs. I used 450/550 Eibach springs for about a year. Then I decided to change the springs for 650/800 Eibach springs. In order to use such stiff springs, I had to have my Koni's revavled(by TrueChoice) so they would not blow out and do their job. I've been on this setup for 2+ years. Sitting at a finger gap, the ride is extremely rough on the streets. In absolutely no way could this ride ever be considered smooth.
further, what are you trying to achieve with such high rates all the way around? limit pitch and roll? limit suspension compression/bottoming out the shocks? limit ground contact? change oversteer/understeer characteristics?
are there not ways to solve those problems without creating the harsh ride your car now has?
If you change your ride height from one point to another WITHOUT any interference of the bump stops, then generally ride quality won't change much,l if at all. But when you drop a car more and more, spring rates/shocks being the same, you raise the chances of hitting/riding the bump stops which reduces ride quality.
Also, there is a point when you are TOO low and you screw up the geometry of your suspension which DOES affect ride quality and most definitely performance. Look at the RoadRace/Autocross/TimeAttack section on H-T, the vast majority of those cars aren't slammed or dumped to the ground, for good reason.
To lower a civic to the point that it's tucking the tires, you NEED stiff springs and agressive shocks to adequetly handle them. Stiffer springs=loss ride quality. Don't look any further into it, it's that simple..
i disagree with the notion that you have to have stiff linear springs in your car if you are riding lowered, or that those are the only option (which is the concept stated by the title of this thread).
#344
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
Air ride is beyond the scope of the avg tuner
Its not just the suspension itself... its all the weight and maintenance for it
Really doesn't have a place in this discussion IMO.
Its like saying "you cant have a cheap torquey B16!" and some fabricator comes in like "well actually i combined two B16s to make V8 and i did it with stuff i had around my house so this thread is wrong". Cmon man
Its not just the suspension itself... its all the weight and maintenance for it
Really doesn't have a place in this discussion IMO.
Its like saying "you cant have a cheap torquey B16!" and some fabricator comes in like "well actually i combined two B16s to make V8 and i did it with stuff i had around my house so this thread is wrong". Cmon man
#345
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
This is straying away from the main topic...
#346
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
but your suggestion is that my suspension AND my result are both outliers, that prove the thread title false.
or you could move the bumpstops further from the static height...
to keep it away from the ground, i assume, since everything else is moveable
no, you're just arguing that it has results that are unattainable with metal and oil.
but that thread title would be as incorrect as this one.
which returns me to the question i had above, if your springs are so hard that they barely deflect, resulting in poor tire contact, how does that help handling?
further, what are you trying to achieve with such high rates all the way around? limit pitch and roll? limit suspension compression/bottoming out the shocks? limit ground contact? change oversteer/understeer characteristics?
are there not ways to solve those problems without creating the harsh ride your car now has?
further, what are you trying to achieve with such high rates all the way around? limit pitch and roll? limit suspension compression/bottoming out the shocks? limit ground contact? change oversteer/understeer characteristics?
are there not ways to solve those problems without creating the harsh ride your car now has?
I'm trying to achieve better handling through better control. Yes, I am decreasing body roll laterally and forward to aid in corner speed and braking/acceleration. I did not choose these rates because I was concerned about bottoming out or to limit ground contact, I knew I wouldn't be low enough to be concerned about it in the first place.. And yes, I chose those rates specifically to increase oversteer for more accurate car placement and less resistance(understeer) during cornering. Stiffer in the rear for my car results in more oversteer.
unless you move those bumpstops away from the static height.
that refutes the title of the other sticky in this section, doesn't it? the "you don't need camber kits" thread?
i don't disagree that stiffer springs (especially linear ones) result in harsher rides (as i noted in my first post in this thread).
i disagree with the notion that you have to have stiff linear springs in your car if you are riding lowered, or that those are the only option (which is the concept stated by the title of this thread).
i disagree with the notion that you have to have stiff linear springs in your car if you are riding lowered, or that those are the only option (which is the concept stated by the title of this thread).
#348
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
Posts: 29,530
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
47 Posts
Re: You CANNOT ride slammed AND have a smooth ride!
I've about had it with the picked apart line-by-line arguing. The thread title stands, as does my premise of riding slammed, as it is rooted in the physical, natural laws of this universe.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
swizz977
Suspension & Brakes
9
09-09-2012 11:50 AM