Kindled Light

So, unless a shock is shortened, are top hats needed when 1 inch or more of lowering is used? I've been told by ground control for example that anything below one inch should use a top hat. I wanted to know if this extended beyond just their product.

Edit: I'm talking about extended top hats, not OEM stock.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Stock length shocks on most any car are set up as low as they should be from the factory. If Honda could have made the car lower, they would have.

Extended hats will bring back travel on a lowered car and move the bumpstops away.

But what stops the UCA from hitting the tower?

Also, what kind of car?

Kindled Light

Good question, and one I have no idea how to answer nor did I think about.

It's a 1999 Honda Civic Si. Suspension is stock but its running its age at this point.

Kindled Light

Also, I just realized I never specified EXTENDED top hats. My apologies.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

I edited my post to make it more clear.

How low do you wanna go?

Kindled Light

I really don't want to go lower than 1.25-1.5inches from stock maybe 1.75 at the most. I've been looking to pair H&R Sports or maybe even GC Sleeves with Bilstein B6s or a B8 front and B6 rear considering they don't make the shortened B8 for all around for the 96-00 Civics. I don't want to squish the shocks stroke so I've been trying to gain as much information as possible. I want it stiffer than stock, but this isn'y a race car. Just a street car that can be driven spirited. I am open to suggestions, though I'm pretty dead set on the Bilstein's as far as shocks go.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Bilsteins are great.

But there's going to be a couple things working against you. You're going from space-limited twin tubes to space-limited monotubes that don't have external reservoirs.

Monotubes have less available travel because of the air spring.

A 1.75" drop isn't a great idea. Anything beyond a 1" drop with B6's doesn't really work on springs that are streetable.

You can, ofcourse, do it anyway. But you'll be giving up a lot of ride quality.

The extended hats will help with travel. Again, just get a bumpstop that works with the spring and prevents UCA contact. There's not that much room above the UCA either.

Non adjustable Bilsteins also have a reputation for riding a little harshly. Again...because theyre monotubes, and because I think Bilsteins are valved pretty aggressively.

FWIW, H&R makes a coilover with Bilstein shocks. H&R Street Performance. In case you want something not peiced together. Not sure how the SP's are valved compared to B6 or B8's. And I'm not sure what the case length on the SP's is. I think they're TUV compliant...so probably pretty close to stock length.

Kindled Light

Hmm. Interesting information.

So I could go with the top hats but again, I'm fighting distance even if I'm saving my B6's travel. I am aware the top UCA really doesn't have much room to work with as it is.

I've heard of the H&R Street Pref. So they're literally just Bilstein's with an H&R setup? My own goal has been for the most part, to keep things simple as I'm really not concerned with adjustability or the hassle of making my ride height correct, though if I have to I will tackle the challenge.

So, if I wanted to be simple with the Bilstein's, is there a non-Honda spring that would be acceptable with them? Would I be better off tackling things with Koni Sports if I wanted the H&R's? Would top hats be needed for those as well?

I'm not Looking to cheap out either, but I don't feel like spending over a grand for shocks/springs/coils. It isn't worth it to me for this car. That's why my initial plan was Bilstein B6/H&R Sports, but the more I read, the more I worried about length and travel, thus looking into top hats. This is the fight one has to take when changing a cars factory engineered geometry.

So, again. Since the BilsteiBilsten aggressive Mono-tube, what Pros/Cons would I face against the well renowned Koni Sport twin-tube for example?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Konis are adjustable for a wide array of springs. They're twin tube...which is inherently more comfortable.

But they won't respond like monotubes. This sounds dumb...until you drive a car with monotubes.

I would buy coilovers (GC's count as coilovers). There's no advantage to springs. Often, people aren't happy with the drop that they're stuck with when they buy springs.

Set the height how you want it. Spend 20 mins initially. Then never touch it again if you don't want. At least your initial height setting will be how you want it.

Quality linear coilover springs like Eibach (GC) should never sag or settle. As long as you properly clock your suspension bushings, your ride height should not settle from initial.

Kindled Light

So Twin-tube is good for comfort? Good to know. Also nice to know the Koni's can stretch a mile with options.

Can you explain this to me? I mentioned a Bilstein Porsche 944 in the other thread so I kind of understand, but I've only ever been in one other stiff car and those were...KSports...SOOOOO it wasnt my flavor. Response is inportant to me.

Since GC counts. Would a Kono/GC or Bilstein/GC setup sound doable? When I inquired with GC, they suggested the top hats and 340 front, 250 rear lbs/in for street driving. Does that sound reasonable? I'm not slamming and I only wanted like 1.25in or so drop with these as it was.

I plan on having pretty much a full refurbished suspension by then. New bushings, POR-15 costed parts, nothing junk aftermarket. Mostly OE besides the shocky springy coily thingys. Bushings Im still not sure on.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

If Genuine Honda bushings are unavailable or too spendy, I would go with hardrace rubber. Just like stock bushings...remember to clock them..or they'll tear in a week or two.

I really like Bilsteins on S2000's. But that's a totally different car.

I'd be tempted to try the H&R SP or Bilstein/GC.

I know Koni/GC is the safest bet. But safe bets are boring, eh?

Buy the tophats afterward. If you measure and see a lot of bumpstop contact at your desired ride height.

The bumpstop is part of the spring rate on these (and most) cars...but again, the more active it is, the harsher the ride will be.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Oh and apples to apples, twin tubes are more comfortable because they don't have an air spring and they have more available travel.

Again....apples to apples, as a generally true statement. Obviously, there are twin tubes out there that ride like **** and monotubes that glide like silk.

Kindled Light

What does clocking a bushing mean? And should I avoid Poly? Also Its been touch trying to find if Hardrace was reputable in the past. But I assume Honda is the way to go anyway.

Yes, the S2000 is totally a differwnt car lol.

Both of them are tempting me thats a fact.

This is exactly part of why I want Bilstein's and maybe I couldn't explain that. I know this is tried and true but, maybe it'd be more fun to have something that is and acts a little different, especially since its the only well known Mono-tube I know for the market.

Will I need a spring compressor to replace them if I end up needing the hats? Could I just raise the car as another alternative as well?

Bumpstops sit in the bottom of the top hats right?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Coilovers are adjustable. You just turn them downward to make the tophat removable. No spring compressor needed. The perches can just be lowered down to take the preload off.

Bumpstops are what sit between the tophat and the shock body. They slide along the shock shaft. If you removed the boot from the stock shock, you'd see them.

The big advantage with ready made coilovers like the H&R SP is that the bumpstop length and rate is tuned to work with the springs. And its all new with the setup.

Clocking bushings is tighening them at ride height. You shouldn't tighten bushing bolts while the car is raised with the wheels dangling. The bushing is forced to twist as the car is lowered down (think of how the control arms move when the car is set back down). Thusly...they tear quickly if not clocked. The goal is to have no twist at static ride height.

They still twist as the suspension moves...but they're designed for that delta. They're not designed for the delta with just tightening them down with the wheels dangling and then setting the car down and then twisting for bumps.

I wouldn't buy poly. I just bought a 2nd S2000 to use on the track and am in the process of removing all the old poly and replacing it with rubber+spherical.

Stay away from poly. Especially for a street car. Bad life span. Terrible ride, especially considering they only offer up a small deflection resistance over rubber.

There's a reason OEMs never use poly.

Kindled Light

Ok, I know exactly what you're talking about then.

So this would be the downside of the GC Sleeves vs the ready mades? Its already fine tuned. I guess my only concern on the H&R SPs is I'm having trouble finding the rates on them, though I know that isnt a main factor in how they act.

Ok, I understand and know of what you are saying. I just never heard it in the term of clocking, only torquing when in resting ride height. So, bolt in, no torque, settle down, torque. Got it.

So stay away from things like ASR LCAs and anything with Poly in them for the street? I guess that brings me to the question of sway bars. My car stock has a 13mm rear and 16mm front. I thought about ASR but that sounds like too much for a street car. Would the Eibach 17mm be a decent bump up without having to do modification to anything for stiffer bars? I dont think I need much, just to match what would be stiffer rates unless Im misunderstanding.

So Honda or Hardrace then basically?

Just so I understand, what makes Mono different in its response to Twin?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

A 99 Si has a 26mm front bar and like a 13?mm rear one. I was pretty happy using a 23mm JDM ITR rear bar with subframe reinforcement (ASR or similar) when I had my Si.

GC sleeves are a DIY kinda thing. You pick what springs and bumpstops to use. Offers the ability to keep it simple AF or to make it complex AF for ultra fine tune.

H&R SP spring rates are probably like 350F and 180R or thereabouts. Very conservative. You can always use a different, linear spring and the shocks may be just fine. Or maybe not. Which is the trouble with no damper adjustment.

Hardrace is what I'd buy. Just make sure you buy the right front LCA bushings. 99 Si shares the front LCA and sway bar mounts with 96-00 CTR's (similar to a CR-V). They're different from the other 6G models.

Monotubes respond better, offer better road feel, and more "preciseness" in damping as a result of the air spring, single chamber, and type of valving.

They also usually offer better LOW shaft speed control (more damping at lower shaft speeds due to faster reaction), which is great for keeping the car locked down over dips and gradual bumps...and to control roll/dive/squat. If you pair that with a "softer" high shaft speed bleed, you get a car that's stable and locked down, but comfy.

Monotubes still tend to feel more "crisp" than "soft" over stuff like railroad tracks and cracks. But the combination of control, feedback, and comfort is better.

Difficult to explain. But its why you liked that Porsche so much.

Kindled Light

Do ITR Bars bolt right up? Does the USDM Acura one share the same thickness?

So basically find some decent bumpstops with this kit and I'm set so long as I dont try to play Captain Slam-it.

This is one thing I am aware of as the Si uses the same ones found off like...the EK9 for example. Part of why its sway bar is unique if I remember correctly. Thanks for the reminder though.

Your write up with Monos honestly make me want them more. While I understand Twins have that soft comfy feeling with adjustment (Koni/Tokico), the idea behind having that crisp, precise, and direct feeling excites me. It doesnt need to be race stiff, just its awesome to know what the road is projecting. I've sat in a few cars, and valeted many cars (second job), and I've never sat in anything like that Porsche. You felt everything, but not in a bad way. To be blunt, it was pure joy, and has had me stuck on the idea of reclaiming a feeling like that ever since, but not as stiff for a street car. Maybe for a weekend project down the line...🤔.

It seems like a split choice. The aggressive yet crisp Mono, or comfortable yet adjustable Twin. I do see why people would want and use Koni/Tokico setups though.