the k20a3 doesnt have oil squiters as a k20a2 do. should i be fine without them on the built a3. i'll be installing pistons and rods on the block, but do i need to install oil squiters along with the other mods???
thanks. Damian

 

No; don't use them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No; don't use them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

question, why would you say that?

the squirters spray oil to the bottom part of the piston and dissipates heat as well as lubricates the piston wrist pin, or at least that was my knowledge....

off course, forged pistons can control heat a lot better than cast ones, but you didn't mentioned which one you're using, but off course, since you didn't mentioned anything about the resleeve i'm asuming they aren't forged.

 

The oil squirters are a band-aid that Honda used to help cool the cheap cast pistons when they were at high RPM's (VTEC). The metals used are not able to sufficiently transfer the heat down into the rod, so the squirters shoot oil up there to cool things down. The downside to this design is that the oil squirters must use up some of the oil pressure to squirt the oil, therefore taking away oil that could be flowing to the bearings.

When you replace the pistons and rods with forged units, cooling is no longer a problem: the forged pieces are much better at transferring the heat along.

Since cooling is no longer a problem, one can simply remove the squirters and you will get more pressure at the bearings, where the pressure is really needed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">, since you didn't mentioned anything about the resleeve i'm asuming they aren't forged</TD></TR></TABLE>

He said he was going to be using them in a built k-motor, and the pistons and rods are typically the first things that are replaced in a "built" motor.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The oil squirters are a band-aid that Honda used to help cool the cheap cast pistons when they were at high RPM's (VTEC). The metals used are not able to sufficiently transfer the heat down into the rod, so the squirters shoot oil up there to cool things down. The downside to this design is that the oil squirters must use up some of the oil pressure to squirt the oil, therefore taking away oil that could be flowing to the bearings.

When you replace the pistons and rods with forged units, cooling is no longer a problem: the forged pieces are much better at transferring the heat along.

Since cooling is no longer a problem, one can simply remove the squirters and you will get more pressure at the bearings, where the pressure is really needed.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

not saying your wrong but why remove the nozzles if they are there. forged internals are not indestructable just a hell of allot better.

as for the pressure thing just shim your oil pump for a little extra psi if you really feel you need it.

just my 2 cents

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The oil squirters are a band-aid that Honda used to help cool the cheap cast pistons when they were at high RPM's (VTEC). The metals used are not able to sufficiently transfer the heat down into the rod, so the squirters shoot oil up there to cool things down. The downside to this design is that the oil squirters must use up some of the oil pressure to squirt the oil, therefore taking away oil that could be flowing to the bearings.

When you replace the pistons and rods with forged units, cooling is no longer a problem: the forged pieces are much better at transferring the heat along.

Since cooling is no longer a problem, one can simply remove the squirters and you will get more pressure at the bearings, where the pressure is really needed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I understand your point of view and i don't agree with you, BTW: i was just asking why you thought that, no need to get defensive...in case you did....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">He said he was going to be using them in a built k-motor, and the pistons and rods are typically the first things that are replaced in a "built" motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, i missed the "built" part

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18cls1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not saying your wrong but why remove the nozzles if they are there. forged internals are not indestructable just a hell of allot better.

as for the pressure thing just shim your oil pump for a little extra psi if you really feel you need it.

just my 2 cents</TD></TR></TABLE>

Same reason why i was asking, usually when we rev that high the oil pump pumps a lot of oil and because of the relief valve we loose a bit, so i guess that you can shim it to open a lil bit later and not loose that.

IMHO the more heat we can take away from the internals of an engine and pass them to the oil, the more everything will last....

 

I don't understand this shimming idea. main bearing clearence determines oil pressure. not shims.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jago &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't understand this shimming idea. main bearing clearence determines oil pressure. not shims.</TD></TR></TABLE>

shim the oil pump spring to give the spring more static pressure wich inturn raises oil pressure.

 

dont waste your time in oil squirters on forged pistons...no need to go through the trouble and not really needed.
you'll be fine.
no need to shim the pump unless you loose oil pressure somewhere, stock pressure is fine.

 

yep yep listen to these guys they got it on lock down

but yes once u got forged pistons there is no need for the squirters

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18cls1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
not saying your wrong but why remove the nozzles if they are there. forged internals are not indestructable just a hell of allot better.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

To get more oil pressure at the bearings if you will be spinning your motor high. The squirters rob a bit of pressure, and if you plug them up, you will gain more pressure in other places. At least in the Prelude motors, which I have built, they need all the oil pressure they can get at the bearings.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GZERO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I understand your point of view and i don't agree with you, BTW: i was just asking why you thought that, no need to get defensive...in case you did....
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahah, nope, I didn't get defensive; trust me, you'd KNOW if I was getting defensive!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GZERO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
IMHO the more heat we can take away from the internals of an engine and pass them to the oil, the more everything will last....</TD></TR></TABLE>

While that can be true, every motor has its own unique weaknesses. While cooling may be great in any motor, if other places need the oil more, you gotta do what you gotta do to make sure those places get that oil!

And about the whole shimming thing: it was my understanding that shimming it will allow more pressure earlier, but the max pressure on the top end would not be increased because it would all still be restricted by the flow design through the motor and the max flow capacity of the oil pump.

Nonetheless, I will be shimming the pump on my next motor. How much should I shim it?

 

Any step that can prevent engine failure should be taken. Yes, you can probably get away with not having them, but for what its worth why wouldnt you use them on a FI application...its just cheap insurence.

Rich

PS. Many manufacturers use oil squirters on FI applications. Case in point, Subaru's EJ22T (closed block, oil squirters, forged internals)... as bullet-proof as factory stuff gets.

 

thanks for the replies guys, i was out of town and couldnt use a computer for ****. so here i am again.
the block is going to keep the stock sleeves with a block guard. a2 crank and oil pump because the a2 is hydraulic while the a3 uses balance shafts.
so yeah im gonna have enough pressure in the system. i think im not gonna need them.

thanks again

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jago &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't understand this shimming idea. main bearing clearence determines oil pressure. not shims.</TD></TR></TABLE>

riiight. where did you go to school? do you know how a honda oil pump operates? shimming DOES affect it. just don't go overboard. when you shim a pump, you are shimming the PRESSURE relief valve/spring.
main bearing clearance isn't as much of an issue on oil pressure, because by the time the oil goes throw the crankshaft ports, it's been pressurized by the pump.

 

They are not needed.

The wrist pin is lubricated fine through the rod oil channels.

In a case where heat in the piston is not an issue, all you get is a drop in oil pressure and an increase in windage. Spraying oil haphazardly in the cylinders doesn't sound great to me. Keep in mind the oil squirter's squirt in a fixed location, if you think they hit the bottom of the piston all the time you are mistaken.

Not to mention that with forged pistons you have to run larger clearances, which means during startup you are going to get more blowby.

 

I'm not going to argue with anyone here. But b18cLS1 is right. I'm not going to get crazy here but I must say a couple things.

First- Oil squirters needed? NO!!! Desirable yes. Especially on high cylinder pressure, long distance racing with high piston heat.
Im only going to say this once. I don't like writing articles on stuff but I must butt in. And as stated before won't argue with anyone. Lets throw stock cast pistons out the window. They suck. And especially on hondas. Ring lands crack, they don't hold horsepower blah blah blah. There is a common number though for all pistons and it's 600 degrees. When your piston hits that it's when it doesn't want to hold anymore. Forged pistons will transfer heat down the skirt and such much better than a hyper piston will. Making it easier to keep the piston top cooler. But with expansion comes friction especially on a forged piston. There for you want to keep the cylinder walls cooler to keep expansion down on the skirt. It will last longer. Vice versa for a hyper piston. Heat doesn't transfer, there for oil squirters are less of an issue. Grab a hyper piston on the skirt and put a torche to it and you can hold that piston just fine. Do it to a forged piston and see how long you can hold it before you burn your hand. The problem is if you are running high cylinder temp then a hyper piston will fail much quicker becuase of the lack of heat transfer. And when a hyper piston fails it has a tendancy to cause more damage.

I don't think the question is whether or not they are needed but rather which pistons would work best for my application. The only time I see them as a need is on a long distance race vehicle running obscene cylinder temps and pressures. Which is why they are used in in NASCAR and such. The cooler the piston is the higher dynamic effective compression ratio you can actually run without detonation. Which is most of the reason engines fail to begin with.

I could probably go on for days about this stuff but I think my book is now at an end. I won't argue with anyone becuase people believe what they want.

All in all I would rather have oil squirters witha forged piston then a cast or hyper. But then again I wouldn't use a 10:1 forged piston in my car unless I was squeezing the hell out of that motor. If it was just to drive I would go hyper all the way if I was keeping the compression below 11.5 and just wanted a reliable normally aspirated street car.

 

Lets see what Larry at Endyn has said about oil squirters

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
http://theoldone.com/forum/top...14337

They make cleaning oil from the cylinders difficult for the oil rings, and the presence of oil in the combustion process isn't good for forced-induction engine combinations.

The jets are to control piston temperatures at high power levels, which implies high rpm. For Honda engines running cast (factory) pistons, this is important....and I might add that the way some import enthusiasts drive (like racing for top speed), they're a good deal.
We're building Art's engine for street and strip duty. He's interested in a broad power range, and he doesn't want any hint of detonation. We used our forged pistons in his engine, which can withstand a lot more heat without failure than factory slugs, and we don't have to worry about Art doing something stoopid at the wheel, so the squirters got the axe.
It'll make more power and have less oil contamination in the cylinders without them for this particular application.
We build a lot of engines with squirters too, but primarily NA applications where the driver is more apt to be a "loose-nut" behind the steering wheel.
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On the off chance that you respond to a 2 decade old thread, what is your opinion on oil squirters in the case of hypereutectic pistons?

 

The factory cast pistons ARE hypereutectic... and Honda did install oil squirters inside all performance versions of their engines... so, they must believe that these squirters have merit (they weren't just adding weight to the engine). Oil squirters are present to help cool the piston material... reducing hot spots on the piston dome/face and thus, reducing the chances of knock or detonation. This is a good thing regardless of what material your pistons are constructed from... cast or forged. The difference between using them or not is not dramatic... and there are MANY examples of high horsepower engines that have either deleted the oil squirters or have a block that doesn't have the provision for them, and they have fared just fine. Tuning strategy can also help in reducing the chances of detonation/knock. Some builders also suggest that oil pressures inside the engine are slightly higher when the oil squirters are deleted... I personally cannot confirm or deny this theory, but scientifically, there could be merit in this idea assuming that you aren't opening the oil pump bypass valve already while using the oil squirters.