First of all, I'd like to say hat off to Iam7head for stimulating this chain of thought with his Coolant TB Bypass Modification thread here:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=660324

This thread is growing out of a few thoughts in my head as to what can be done to keep our TB's from getting hot similar to how Hondata is maintaining HP with their intake manifold gasket here for K20 motors:

http://www.hondata.com/heatshield.html

The highlights of Hondatas research: The Honda manifold is heated in up to 5 places:
1) From the head,
2) the interior heating takeoff hose,
3) the cold idle valve,
4) the idle control valve and
5) the throttle body heater. <- ie from the previous thread

Except that my idea is to take this a step further and see NOT ONLY what we can do to keep our TB's / intake tracts from getting hot but WHAT WE CAN DO to make them EVEN COOLER than normal. I think this would be especially interesting to ppl running the chrome-style DAC/unpainted metal aftermarket intakes b/k of their (bad) thermal conductivity properties.

SO let's have at it: Here are some (cheap?) (fun?) ideas that pop in my head -

1) an junkyard intercooler designed to blow cooled air onto the manifold/intake tract. Such as from a 88-91 turbo rx7.
2) Part of the A/C rerouted into the engine bay
3) Some kind of top-mount hood cutout w/ a subtle intake scoop.
4) Heatsink fins mounted externally on the intake tract? i.e. more surface area to allow heat to dissapate


The one thing I'm trying to prevent from contacting this area is the elements/and or water so let's keep that in mind. Anyone have any thoughts into this?



Modified by RotaryBzzzz at 1:52 AM 10/28/2003

 

A SMIC might help out a bit. That will bring minimal cold air in. Problem is hooking it up properly, and actually making it work. I have a DAC intake, and do notice that it gets pretty hot after a short while. But I'm definitely going to try that coolant TB bypass very soon.

Ever heard of CryO2? Similar to n2O. When you are spraying, you are actually cooling down either the air, or fuel charge. Serves a purpose, but not worth the $500 price tag. http://www.ppsonline.net/cryo2.htm I wonder if a homemade system will ever be created.

 

Edit: What is an SMIC?

I've heard of something similar. Some top-speed Bonneville guys have setup blocks/other shapes of dry ice (Co2) in some setups that would cool the intake tract. At least that's what Racing Beat's FC Rx7 did.

It was quite clever b/k it was sized to 'just' finish vaporizing at approimately top speed at the end of the 2nd run back.

(--------->
done<---)

 

if one bypasses the heat from the head and the coolant, there would be no need for such an animal, unless underhood temps themselves are very high. In which case you'd want header wrap or a typical air scoop.

Now, one idea one could look into, is using a setup similar to what they use in overclocked computers to water cool the processor. You could do all kinds of things with this idea...and the voltage requirements would be very minimal.

The trouble though, is that in the end, it'll all still heat up. The best option of all, is to be able to spray compressed air (it'll do the same as nitrous, but spray only a small amount and not for the purposes of forcing air induction).

- Nathan

 

SMIC - Side Mount Intercooler

DSMs that were turbo stock came with them. It's mounted right next to the wheelwell.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RotaryBzzzz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) an junkyard intercooler designed to blow cooled air onto the manifold/intake tract. Such as from a 88-91 turbo rx7.
2) Part of the A/C rerouted into the engine bay
3) Some kind of top-mount hood cutout w/ a subtle intake scoop.
4) Heatsink fins mounted externally on the intake tract? i.e. more surface area to allow heat to dissapate</TD></TR></TABLE>
1) This could work as long as the ducting is in polished non-conductive aluminum tubing, or piping wrapped with aluminum foil tape.

2) The A/C would sure do the job, with the same type of piping, but running the A/C would offset the power gain, unless you are in TX and always use A/C.

3) This too could work, and while you're at it, why not make a larger scoop for a ram-air system, and insert a small ducting for the TB cooling.

4) The heatsinks would only dissippate heat to the extent of the temperature inside the hood, and I expect the temperature of the TB without the heatsinks would not be higher, or not enough to make a difference.

But true this is a nice idea to toy with, and props to iam7head for bringing it up, it's refreshing, and it has been a while since we have had this quality of threads here, including yours, RotaryBzzzz.

I really am curious to know how much gains can be had this way.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sauceman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
2) The A/C would sure do the job, with the same type of piping, but running the A/C would offset the power gain, unless you are in TX and always use A/C.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahhh...but what if you switched off the A/C when you were ready to get "hot".

Let's say you DON'T normally run the a/c....

Consider this scenario:
1) Expecting a need for power later. (say your a streetable drag car at the weekend tracks...not gutted & with A/C - idling in the staging area)
2) Run A/C (with some ducting routed to TB)
3) Need increased power...
4) Turn A/C off (and lose the parasitic drag)
5) Realize power gain w/ cooled TB + intake tract
6) TB + intake eventually warms up
7) Repeat.

it's the INVERSE power button. Turn it OFF when you want more power.

How about this: Have the A/C ducting run EXACTLY where the coolant was running via the Throttle Body Heater Passages? Instead of hot coolant it's chilled air

Edit: It's gets more interesting....when your still at work at 8:50pm. Another idea: i need to look at my firewall BUT here's an idea w/ routing the a/c: You want to do this post a/c logicon. Reason? You can control the air flow (and proportionately the cooling capacity) by opening or closing the vents and the choosing the "right" selector. Let's say you tap into the passenger side vent. If I remember correctly, selecting "high level only" switch shoots air from the center console and driver/passenger side vents but not from to your feet or windshield defroster.

like this
(O)-----(O)(O)------(O)

__(()) &lt;-steering wheel


Since you can fully close the vents in these areas (god i love honda), you could close the driver side & 2 centers to max flow chilled air to the passenger vent.
Except this vent would be routed out to the TB toward the end of the passenger side vent track (so you don't loose too much a/c cooling capacity on a hot humid day).

like this:
(X)----(X)(X)----x(X)

x=point at which a/c is routed to TB Heater Passages/Intake

I still need to investigate how recirculate & fresh affect this setup...thoughts?

It's gets even more interesting: How about routing the exiting throttle body airflow out to cool the Intake manifold....into some kind of cool-air chamber. The only thing i can think of is some kind of tough plastic bag that can form-fit the intake tract like a cushion.

ooooo
o(O)o
ooooo

(O) = intake tract

This whole system would be contained so that you could have max cooling while the system is on "recirculate" and the cabin vents are "Closed". Basically, it's air conditioning on recirculate for the TB + Intake tract and not the passenger cabin.

Thoughts?


Modified by RotaryBzzzz at 5:02 AM 10/28/2003

 

a simple a/c duct running over the throttle body would likely not offset the system (the throttle body) enough to be effective. Unless it was somehow the only thing blowing over the Throttle body (you'd have to fabricate some kind of housing for the throttle body to shield it from engine heat). Also, the heat from the plenum, etc would still move over it. truly, the best idea is some kind of compressed gas on the outside or inside to cool it off. One idea would be one of those "duster" cans they sell, turned upside down so that it sprays out really cold liquid (it's VERY cold)........that'd work REALLY well, I'm not sure if the throttle body being aluminum would hold up to that kind of change in temp that often...but...it'd work nicely, you'd just have to find some kind of solenoid to activate the trigger.

- Nathan

 

Hmmm. I didn't see it that way, and it does make a lot of sense. I know nothing about the air ducting, except that usually recirculated air flow is greater than fresh.

 

This is the kind of posts I remember on this site. This is what made me love this site, then it all started going to hell. Big props for innovative thought on the part of the one's who have contributed in the last few threads (you know who you are).

Now, I feel that one of the best ways to offset the heat soaking properties, of the TB at least, would be to build a heat sheild for it.
Now we all know that air is the best form of insulation. It's the same way a thermos cup works. The air pocket around the liquid inside keeps the temperatures seperate. So, I would think that a simple heat shield, or "airbox", built around the TB, would do pretty well, and not require any special ducting of coolant/water pipes.

The problems I see with the a/c pipe idea, is that it'll still get heat-soaked when traveling around in the engine bay, plus the parasitic loss through the a/c drive system.
The same is true with the heat sink idea. It would only be able to dissipate so much, until it was soaked. I once had that exact same idea, but after further examination, i decided against it.

Obviously though, water/methanol injection or nitrous injection is still the best way to drop intake charge temperatures drastically. But not many people have the moolah to go with that setup. Or they're just scared of it's effects.

Very good topic.

 

I'm thinking that the airbox/heatshield idea would probably give you the biggest gains for the least ammount of work, especially if you incorporated some sort of resivour for holding a chunk of dry ice.

I'm not sure that cooling the TB is going to be enough. I kind of think you would need to cool the intake manifold as well, since you have more mass cooled down.

the design of the f23 Intake manifold kind of slopes down and back away from the head and then the plenum rises up in the back. not sure if the f22 has the same type of design, but it creates kind of a grooved channel. A little bit of sheet metal on the sides, and a few tack welds and you could build a nice little icebox right there in the intake manifold.

 

Absolutely, jweller, I agree 100% the whole manifold needs to be cooled.

 

an intercooler is not gonna help you at all. it's designed to cool air that is hotter than ambient (i.e. forced induction).

don't think you're gonna get much gains from all this work. just go the TB coolant bypass and get a hondata intake manifold gasket. or make one out of phenolic resin if they don't have one for your car.

that alone will do drop your intake temps nearly 20 degrees. there is no need for additional cooling on the TB (because this will only delay heat soak which is inevitable). Every 10 degree drop is good for about 1.75% increase in air density (although this is not linear)...

if you really wanna cool the intake charge alot just get NAWZ

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by White98SH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NAWZ


</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish I recieved a dollar everytime everytime I hear/ see that...

 

haviing the hondata heatshield gasaket, as well as replacing all other gaskets with material that will nto transfer heat effectively would all work a little better i think. the gasket for the intake manifoold, and then gaskets between the idle air valve and the fast idle valvle i would think keep temps down sicne most of the heat transfer comes from the head and the coolant for the idle controls.

 

Here's a reply I got from Hondata today about producing an F-Series gasket:

We have no plans to produce an f-series gasket, but you can check with your Honda dealer and see how the f22gasket compares with the h22 gasket. It may be possible to just use the h22 that we already produce.

Hondata Inc.
386 Beech Ave
Unit B-2
Torrance, CA 90501

Anyone have a link/jpeg for F22 v H22 intake manifold gasket dimensions?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you really wanna cool the intake charge alot just get NAWZ</TD></TR></TABLE>
Edit: I don't want to. I want everything creative and free - basically a grassroots approach...




Modified by RotaryBzzzz at 7:55 PM 10/29/2003