When I replaced the seals on the dizzy, I carefully marked everything as told on another post so it would mate properly when I put it back. But when I put it back, the car did basically nothing. Eventually I took the dizzy back off, and the two teeth (to use MadMike's term, see the pix below) that fit into the cam had broken off inside the engine (I heard nothing that sounded like breakage).
More info & pix below the questions & general intro, below.

So, two questions.
1) How do I get them out so they don't do more damage? Or do I need to?

2) How do I know which way to put the dizzy in? The flange teeth are not centered (of course), but might easily look it if not looking closely. The way I marked it when I took it out and MadMike's picture both appeared to agree.


I don't know what to call the piece that fits on the end of the distributor shaft (held on with a pin) that mates with the cam inside the engine. One place called it a drive flange, so I'm using that. Please correct me on the name of the piece.
I found another thread titled "how to remove a pin on distributor shaft" 2Jun2011. Duaber posted a photo there - hopefully it's OK for me to use it here.
Another more recent thread 31May2017 discusses some of what I'm talking about. "Everybody" says you can't put it in backwards without forcing it. But when the OP says they had no trouble they were told they must have forced it. So when I did mine and it fit in easily, I was curious & turned it around 180 and it went in just as easily. I turned it back so the marks were aligned again, put it in, bolted it down, tried to start, and it wouldn't. When I did take it out again, the two teeth were now missing.
Four possibilities I can see that might have caused the teeth breaking off:
a) I put in in 180 wrong.
b) Taking the shaft out of the dizzy to put the internal seal on I may have somehow gotten the shaft in 180 off, causing a) - though the rotor inside the cap only fits on one way and I marked which way as soon as I took the distributor cap off.
c) In pounding the pin (that holds the drive flange on the shaft*) in & out, could I have weakened the drive flange? I held the gear with the teeth in a vice to pound - but the teeth were not touching the vice, nor did anything (hammer, punch) hit the teeth.
d) Something one of you might think of, but I haven't thought of.

One last detail - several places say to remove a c-ring or an e-ring to remove the drive flange from the shaft. As with the other two post's OPs, I have no such ring next to the rubber O-ring - just the pin. Except I used a good micrometer originally & verified that the hole is the same size at either end, unlike the 2011 post.

Thanks for answers to the two questions I asked - or any other advice about this.

2011 post: https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...shaft-2942704/
2017 post: https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-...25-up-3299855/

 

The teeth are offset so there is one easy way it goes in and one hard way it goes in. You can look at them to see they are slightly offset. It's likely you put it 180 degrees off.

One thing to keep in mind is that when you take it apart, unless you make a mark for when you realign the teeth onto the distributor shaft you can put it back on the shaft 180 degrees off as well, before you put the pin back in to lock it back into place.

It's likely the teeth fell down into the oil pan. You can take the valve cover off and use a magnet to fish around to try to find it. If it's not in the head, you can add some more oil and then drain it and hope it comes out. If they don't come out then you will have to pull the pan to retrieve the pieces.

Did you try looking at the camshaft already ? It could be stuck in the end.

 

I hope all goes accordingly..please keep us updated...

 

As to question 1 - I lucked out. I tried with my telescoping magnet (at it's shortest setting; I just specified telescoping to clarify size, etc) in the pool of oil at the end, thru the dizzy-shaft hole. I found both! Thanks!

As to question 2 - I decided to remove all plugs, pull on the drive belt until I found the compression stroke on the closest piston to the timing chain - #1, and with that same magnet down the long hole (since the usual screwdriver wasn't long enough), moved the belt till it was at the highest point.
Looking in the hole, there is a mark straight at the back of the cam gear, as well as one on the inside (chamfered) edge of the actual gear with the offset gear that the teeth fit in. So I made sure the rotor on the shaft was aimed at cyl 1, and put the drive flange (with the mark straight back) on the end of the shaft & put the pin in. All of those things make it seem likely I have it right this time.
Before I had tried putting it in as I thought AND 180 off, and could not tell the difference in ease of install (but installed it in a third time where I thought it was correct before actually bolting it down & trying to start). This time I've decided not to try it 180 off - it went in easily, so I'll hope for the best

After putting everything together I'm just waiting to start the thing up - but scared to start it

 

Lets start this engine..

 

Third question added at the end - about firing order - I had been thinking there was a problem but couldn't remember what - finally remembered that it related to firing order & checked everything.
I tried to edit my reply - but it didn't show up, so this repeats that PLUS has this additional info. Thanks for being patient with the forum newbie.
Incidentally, the distributor is D4T97-03

As to question 1 - I lucked out. I tried with my telescoping magnet (at it's shortest setting; I just specified telescoping to clarify size, etc) in the pool of oil at the end, thru the dizzy-shaft hole. I found both pieces! Thanks!

As to question 2 - I decided to remove all plugs, pull on the drive belt until I found the compression stroke on the closest piston to the timing chain - #1, and with that same magnet down the long hole (since the usual screwdriver wasn't long enough), moved the belt till it was at the highest point.
Looking in the hole, there is a mark straight at the back of the cam gear, as well as one on the inside (chamfered) edge of the actual gear with the offset gear that the teeth fit in. So in the distributor I made sure the rotor on the shaft was aimed at cyl 1 [I thought - here's the problem coming up], and put the drive flange (with the mark straight back) on the end of the shaft & put the pin in. All of those things made it seem likely I have it right this time.
Before, I had tried putting the dizzy in as I thought, but I also tried it 180 off. I could not tell the difference in ease of install. This time I've decided not to try it 180 off - it went in easily, so I'll hope for the best

After putting everything together I'm just waiting to start the thing up - but scared to start it because I'm not sure which is the correct firing order.

Dizzy 4 3 2 1 Timing Chain

The distributor cap has one head marked A1 and three unmarked heads for the spark plug wires. In between two of them, from the center past the edge, is a raised piece. If I hold the cap so that raised ridge is straight to the right, and call the one below that raised ridge a, going clockwise would be b, then c (marked A1), then d (just above the raised ridge):

c d
A1
C===========

b a

I've found some diagrams that show c (A1) as 1, others that show a as 1.
So according to some diagrams the firing order is 1.) a = 1, b = 3, c (A1) = 4, d = 2
but according to other diagrams the firing order is 2.) c (A1) = 1, d = 3, a = 4, b = 2


When I originally disconnected the wires, I marked them [making mine 2.)]: (A1 (c), being cyl#1).
But some of the car parts places show my car having the former: a being cyl#1 - so my firing order would be off by 180 if this is correct.



This is 2.), where cyl #1 is marked A1, or in my diagram, c.




This is 1.) with cyl 1 being a -- 180 degrees from the other picture

Does anyone have definitive info on which is correct on this 2001 Honda Accord w/ a 2.3L VTEC engine and a D4T97 distributor?

And thanks for everyone's help!

Every time I edit I see what I want. Every time I save, one of the pix turns into the URL, and some of the times I save, the bottom text - i.e., this area - disappears!! I finally changed the text -- which is 1.) and which is 2.) to fit the only picture that would show - and changed all the other places that mentioned 1.) or 2.) At this point I don't know what's correct. And which picture and which text will show up!!

 

Is it a vtec? I know on my 97 f22b2 non vtec the rotor points toward the front of vehicle and f22b1 vtec rotor points toward the rear..on your f23 i believe should be the same..let us know..

 

#1 is near the driver side fender..

 

Yes, the engine is clearly labeled VTEC.

Driver-side would be the opposite end from the distributor, and next to the timing belt cover.

I tried to edit my reply to put in more info, but I lost that. So I'll have to look at it again and figure out what info I lost. But 11pm, and I leave early for work. Tomorrow night I have to work overtime on a project. So maybe Tuesday night before or after I take my son to his evening class.

 

Depends where he is, and what market the car is from.

I prefer to use left and right side of the car, when sitting in it.
This way if the car is RHD or LHD everyone is on the same page. Only time this really matters is when the RHD/LHD specific parts are being diagnosed.

#1 cylinder is on the front of the engine, timing belt side. Left side of the engine bay.
#4 is next to the bellhousing, on the flywheel/driveplate side. Middle of the engine bay.

 

One of the SNAFUs of not keeping tabs on the correct clocking of the distributor rotor and 'teeth'(Honda calls these 'lugs') is that there is a slight clocking difference(~30°) in where the towers are physically of the A1/A4 engines vs the A5. To compound this the A5 along with the non VTEC F22B(1) engines have the numbering/firing order on the distributor rotated an additional 180°. #1 cylinder is #4 and #3 is #2. If you do not pay attention to the correct schematic for rebuilding the distributor, you will inadvertently put the teeth/lug on 180° out. Combined with the 30° difference in tower clocking, Your timing is going to be a whopping 210° out of sync... or is it 420°... anyway the engine won't fire and if you try to force the distributor on 'correctly' you will just end up snapping off the teeth, while still being ~30° off at best.

If memory serves me correctly, the #1 tower of the VTEC engines is farthest away from the coil...

So this should be the correct spark plug wire order and correct index for the rotor to be at #1.

I want to say this is a TEC vs Hitachi difference and not a VTEC vs Non-VTEC difference as I think the 90-93 Accords have the same 'problem' if you do not mark the distributor shaft before removing the lug ring.

 

Yes Mike,
I didn't know the details, so thank you.

So you're showing cyl #1 being where the A1 mark is, which is the way the cables were. [Not knowing that, I arbitrarily used the plug closest to the dizzy as I, and the furthest as IIII, marking that way with a Sharpie, and on the bottom edge of the cap making the same marks. So I was using the 4 (on the cap) in the diagram you posted, as 1 and then marked the rotor as pointing to that connector (by happenstance). But since I removed the 'drive flange' AND I had the wrong cyl 1, my dyslexia is really confused.]

The other point you made that I'm confused on (not what you said, but what I have) is whether I put the flange with the two lugs on the shaft backwards, then turned it to the right direction so that it fits properly. Or did I put it on the shaft correctly and it's facing the right direction.
So I'm either right on, or 210° out of sync! Which is why I haven't tried starting it

So - how do I know which I have? Is it just a matter of seeing where the rotor is pointing, and which direction the drive flange is pointing, and straightening that up? (Since I'm at TDC on the compression stroke on cyl 1.) Or am I missing something else?
And thanks again for your explanation - it helps me. Between you & Hondaslave & Holmes I think I know what I need, now (but anybody feel free to answer on how to verify what I have is correct, and if not, what I need to do to get there!).

 

If you note in the first diagram, it shows the offset of the teeth/lugs. If the engine is at TDC or better at base ignition timing mark via the pointer on the front cover, the offset should be as shown in the diagram.
With the distributors 'lugs' line up with the camshaft, the rotor should be pointing at #1 spark plug tower, which should have 'A1' labeled next to it. If that is correct, install the distributor, hook up all the connections and twist the key.

 

Make sure your on the compression stroke..without the valve cover off and basing it off the pointer on the crank..you might be 180 off..the UP on the cam has to be facing UP while the crank pointer has to be at TDC also..

 

So just feeling for which up-stroke pushes air out isn't good enough? That makes for more work
But better that I know before turning the key

OK, that slows things down. I can still easily verify the distributor - see if the rotor is pointing to the real cyl #1. That I can check easily. But you're saying that's not enough.

Ideally I need to pull the valve cover to be sure.

I'll explain part of the pictures I posted at the very top - the circle labeled CAMSHAFT END. The horizontal bar they show is the opening for the lugs. Following that horizontal line to the left, _outside_ the circles [e.g., permanently in that spot, not rotating], is an inscribed mark (so it would be straight towards the back of the car). On the inner (chamfered) edge of the outer circle is another inscribed mark [so rotating constantly]. When we rotated the cam to the top of the compression stroke, that rotating inner mark is lined up closest to the stationary mark, and the horizontal bar would be a vertical bar, unlike in the picture. And the lugs on the drive flange of the distributor would be vertical, with the inscribed line pointing straight back (so inline with the engine marks, pointing the same direction).

That's the way it is at the moment. I still need to check the rotor inside of the cap. If it's pointing to your #1 on the cap, it's OK. If it's pointing to your #4 on the cap, then I need to turn the shaft to number 1 & turn the flange 180°.
That's for me to check, and easily done. You can ignore that part, since I know enough now to do that part.

But your response sounds like maybe those two marks by the camshaft end maybe should not line up - or may be lined up on the wrong part of the stroke, or something. And that it would be better to verify for somebody like me by removing the valve cover.
So could you explain in more detail what I would need to do there - either how to tell if "the UP on the cam [is] facing UP while the crank pointer [is] at TDC also?" I'm not clear what I would have to do to verify that, with or without the valve cover removed. [The valve cover gasket needs to be replaced anyway: it's seeping oil slowly in a couple spots. It just wasn't on my radar for the moment!]

 

Im unsure about how to do it without removing the valve cover..when i do timing belt changes i always verify with the valve cover off..you will see a UP or a arrrow that needs to point up and the crank marker on tdc...since its a 4 stroke engine you can be tdc on the exhaust stroke and thats why your rotor is 180 off..you will have to remove the valve cover and tge upper timing belt cover to see the UP mark..if its facing down turn the engine counterclockwise one full turn..COUNTERCLOCKWISE..

 

The upper timing cover has to be removed to see the up marker

 

Did you ever get your problem solved?

 

Did you ever get your problem solved?

After 3 - almost 4 - months, as of yesterday it is running thanks to all of you guys.
Holmesnmanny - you were right about the magnet. Thank you.
Hondaslave1342 and Madmike - with all your explanations, advice, and pictures - and for the first time in a few months a free non-rainy Saturday, I finally had it put back together in a way I knew was correct, from checking inside the dizzy, getting the real cylinder 1 to stand up, to the timing chain gear being upright (it was), I had the whole thing open from one end to the other.
Adjusted the timing chain maybe 3 degrees.
Tested the dizzy alignment (rotor & lugs) multiple times.
Put it all back together.
Tried starting. The cranking quickly died down. So put it on a charger for 24 hours and Sunday afternoon tried the key again. I guess the fuel leaked out, so while it caught, it took a minute to actually run. Ran it at 2000 to 2500 RPM for a few minutes. It wanted to die each time I let go of the gas pedal (RPMs would drop to near zero, then come back up to 700). Not sure why that is.

FYI - this all started because the temp gauge had been going way up. I tried to replace the sensor; first the one behind the dizzy which goes straight down, which made no diff, then the one hiding under the dizzy. Almost had it, but it's awkward to get the wrench in there, so in trying to verify it was tight, I went too far and broke the new sensor off in there. That's when I had to remove the dizzy so I could get the rest of the sensor out & put the new one in. A lot easier with the dizzy out - but while it was out I decided to put a new o-ring on (oil was seeping out, and some was inside the distributor, so did that one too). And the rest you already knew about.

THANK YOU GUYS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!!

 

Do I have to take out the " drive flange' if it broke off inside the engine? I tried fishing for it with a magnet stick under the valve cover today but no luck.

 

Really wish I would have researched this a bit more before my attempt. I had the same thing happen on my 2000 accord. I heard a snap as I was tightening the bolts once installing the distributor. I soldiered forward, and tried to start the car, no dice. When I investigated I noticed the two tabs had broken. I replaced the distributor again, and it ran fine. I've not attempted to fish out the tabs that broke off. In speaking with a experienced tech at my local shop, I was advised that they likely did make their way to the oil pan, and that there's little concern. I use this car to just go around town, not long trips so I figured it may not be worth the effort to put in the search.

Not sure if it's worth noting, but the first distributor was purchased from Autozone. It never quite seemed to fit perfect, but I figured the o-ring was new causing some tightness. I did notice that markings on the part that engages the cam was different than factory. The replacement distributor came from napa, and fit like a charm. No oil leaks, which is what started this whole mess.

I wish everyone good luck with this, and I'll report back if the engine shows signs that the tabs are causing issue.

Update 9/15/22

So far so good. 2000 miles on the engine so far and running great.