Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 12:55 PM
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Default B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

I have a del Sol VTEC with the original engine and trans. I'm having a very strange issue and am having a difficult time diagnosing it. It started when I would take right turns at any significant g-force, at the apex second gear would pop out, but only partially as shifter stayed in position. It's gotten worse and now happens almost every time I try to shift into second but it doesn't seem like a synchro - the shifter notches into position properly and feels normal, but when I let out the clutch pedal I hear grinding as if the collar is just brushing the gear. All other gears function perfectly. It seems like a linkage issue, and I'm wondering what to try before I start looking into a trans rebuild.. Any thoughts?
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 01:15 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

How much "slop" is in the linkage? If you put it in 2nd gear, are you able to move it left/right a fair bit?

Sounds like the bushings for linkage and shifter may just be worn out/degraded.
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 01:59 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

You talk of apex corners and g-force but you don't know how to diagnose this problem or where to begin? How is that even possible? youtube videos?
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 02:16 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

There is a normal amount of left/right play, no different than it was 100,000 miles ago. the shifter notches into position but doesn't seem to grab the actual gear. It will go into gear only if I'm very careful with letting the clutch out, it's hard to describe but I can elaborate if need be
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 02:19 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Originally Posted by 95islegreensol
There is a normal amount of left/right play, no different than it was 100,000 miles ago. the shifter notches into position but doesn't seem to grab the actual gear. It will go into gear only if I'm very careful with letting the clutch out, it's hard to describe but I can elaborate if need be
Maybe something internal with the trans then, either a synchro or a sleeve. Frankly I don't know enough about trans rebuilds to know what could be causing what you're describing, just sounds like the trans isn't completely "selecting" the gear.
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 02:34 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Yeah it seems like its a linkage issue, thanks for your help. The motor mounts are definitely starting to go so I'll start with the bushings and mounts and see where that gets me. Any ideas on why right turns would affect it? I've read about the counter shaft bearings walking out on D-series transmissions causing a similar issue but the B-series trans has a plate to prevent this
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 02:51 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Originally Posted by tony_2018
You talk of apex corners and g-force but you don't know how to diagnose this problem or where to begin? How is that even possible? youtube videos?
The car is bone stock and has been without mechanical fault until now so I've never had to take it fully apart, just hoped to be enlightened by seasoned Honda mechanics like yourself before going ***** deep in my daily
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 03:30 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

I've never seen shifter bushings cause a problem, even when they were essentially non-existent. Even motor mounts shouldn't be causing a problem unless maybe all of them were broken. All I can think of would be a worn out/damaged 2nd gear synchro spring or possibly an absolutely destroyed top countershaft bearing allowing the countershaft to lift slightly.
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Old Jan 30, 2018 | 03:36 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

It's very strange, when it actually engages in second, it's problem free until I left off the gas in the middle of a right turn. Am I mistaken that a failed synchro wouldn't allow the shifter to notch into place?
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Old Jan 31, 2018 | 06:19 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

The synchro only acts as a brake to slow the gear down when shifting. The synchro spring is what locks the sleeve to the gear.
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Old Jan 31, 2018 | 06:54 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Interesting, have you ever seen just a failed synchro spring? And I don't think the counter shaft bearing failed, when engaging the clutch in second the shifter does move forward a tad when it "pops out" which indicates the collar is being pushed, and also the issue is isolated to second gear..
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Old Feb 1, 2018 | 01:48 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Originally Posted by 95islegreensol
Interesting, have you ever seen just a failed synchro spring?
Usually when the spring is bad the sleeve and hub and banged up as well, and if it's been left long enough the engagement teeth one the gear itself Any of those those things, along with a bad syncro spring will normally cause the transmission to grind shifting into that gear as well. Rarely do I see synchros worn to the service limit, usually everything else goes bad first.
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Old Feb 2, 2018 | 10:18 AM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Originally Posted by 94EG8
Usually when the spring is bad the sleeve and hub and banged up as well, and if it's been left long enough the engagement teeth one the gear itself Any of those those things, along with a bad syncro spring will normally cause the transmission to grind shifting into that gear as well. Rarely do I see synchros worn to the service limit, usually everything else goes bad first.
So to further elaborate, the transmission doesn't grind at all when shifting into gear but once the shifter is notched into position, when the clutch is engaged the sleeve seems to pop off the gear. In order to get the trans to actually stay in second I will have to rev first up to 4.5-5k, move the shifter into second and give slight gas as I slowly engage the clutch, and the success rate of this is about 60% and dropping. When in gear it's rock solid, but will pop out when going around a right turn if there is no gas applied (left turns are no problem). It seems like the linkage isn't moving the sleeve far enough and when the shift is successful it is due to the coaxing of the sleeve fully into place via the systematic torque applied
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Old Feb 2, 2018 | 02:45 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

the linkage has no control over keeping it in gear, it's going to be the components of the gear or possibly the detent spring
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Old Feb 3, 2018 | 01:41 PM
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Default Re: B16A3/Y21 Second gear STRANGENESS

Originally Posted by holmesnmanny
the linkage has no control over keeping it in gear, it's going to be the components of the gear or possibly the detent spring
Yep, although it is possible the 1st/2nd shift fork is bent. I had this happen before where I bent the 3rd/4th fork on a D-series trans coming out of 2nd trying to ram it into 3rd at 7000 rpm and forgot to push the clutch in. It popped out of 3rd every so often after that until I finally pulled it apart and replaced the fork.
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