Question: Does it seem right that a dealer can void a warranty without knowing the true diagnosis of a problem (rough idle & poor accleration) because they think a car may have had cams or camgears?

Some of you may recall that I used to have an 01' ITR that I sold about 6 months ago to an older person in their 40’s who was getting it as a gift for their teenage child. This week, I get an email from the person who bought it from me stating that the car has been great, but recently developed a rough idle and poor acceleration. They further state that the Acura dealer is telling them they don’t have a diagnosis for the problem, but the warranty is voided because of plastic that holds the cams in place has been cut. They haven't completely diagnosed the problem, but the know the warranty is voided
I bet they were probably doing a valve adjustment and noticed that piece was cut and decided to go ahead and void out their warranty



Lets hypothetically say the Car had spec a's and toda gears (and other basics) for a while and then was returned to stock and drove perfect. No problems at all. 6+ months go by and the car develops a problem and the dealer is flaking out on the new owners. Granted I have no idea how the car has been treated for the past 6monts by a teenager.

The dilema:
The communication between myself and the buyer was very minimal, at best, and was more oriented towards working out a day/time to complete the transaction. No discussion about the car and whether or not it has been modified or to what extent it had ever been modified (basically took a look at it and liked it and wanted to get it asap). At one point I offered the buyer the car for an afternoon so they could take it to a place of their choice for an inspection (for their peace of mind). I also told the buyer I didn’t have copies of maintenance records, but they could be retrieved from my local Acura dealer for their personal records since all the regular maintenance/service work was done by them.

In the email, the buyer recalled the above last sentence & interpreted it to mean that any and all work that had ever been performed on the car was done by the Acura dealer. Also, when they came and looked at the car, I had just gotten off of work and was still in a business suit, so I probably didn't look like the typical speed deamon in their eyes. So, I had to explain it again for them exactly what was said and written in our correspondence.



[Modified by S&P500ITR, 10:22 PM 8/12/2002]

 

maybe the new owner (the teenager) misshifted?

 

So you had cams and gears installed and now the car is F-ing up after you sold it? And they found plastic rubber piees cut off and cant determine if that is the problem? Have them take it to another dealer and see if they can fix it or come out and tell them you had stuff installed and will help them solve the problem before it becomes anything big.

 

IMO, The plastic being cut is not a valid reason to void the warranty, however, once they proved that any bolts were turned on the cam caps, etc, it would be enough imo. If they fight with acura corporate they'll probably get it fixed, unless, the new owner was negligent and misshifted, et cetera.


[Modified by SoFreshAndSoCleanClean, 1:33 AM 8/13/2002]

 

hey, if you had cut the plastic where it is indicated, it would spew oil all over the timing belt. besides, no one in their right mind would cut it there for cam gears. am i missing something?

 

Tell them to try a new dealer. or call acura of america

 

I am speaking from my own experiences with dealers, and the mulitple questions I have asked regarding warranty on our cars, and I have come to this conclusion:

1) Dealers will say and do anything NOT to fix something under warranty, I think it is safe to say that dealers hate doing warranty repairs

2) The entire warrany of a car cannot be void unless the entire car has been modified. Meaning that if you had cams, and the rear suspenion was to fall off (im just trying to make a point) The suspension would be covered under warranty because those cams were not a direct result of the suspension coming off, and vise-versa..if your car is dropped, and you blow your motor, your motor is still COVERED under warranty.

Basically what i am trying to get at here (and im having a lot of trouble doing so cuz its late and i need sleep ) is that the dealer has to come to a 100% conclusion that those 2 bolts being cut is a direct result of the cars problems. If they have nothing to do w/ what is going wrong w/ the car, then they CANNOT say they will not fix it (unless it was caused by the driver)

This is the info i have gathered in my search to clear up warranty issues.


[Modified by 98itR484, 7:38 AM 8/13/2002]

 

well, from my experiences with dealers, (ford, subaru, mitsubishi & honda specifically), it is up to the dealers discretion whether they will or will not work on a car. my friend went through this with a few local dealers about his warranty issue. they wouldn't touch his car because had been modded (intake, wheels, suspension, basic stuff) he found a dealer in the next state over that understood that what he had done didn't affect the broken part, and everything was fine after that. they over torqued his wheels, but that is a different story....
also, he had spoken directy to honda north america, and they said they were powerless. they said that it is up to the individual dealers discretion. so, i would say try a different dealer. but it sounds awfully like a misshift, which is obviously human error. you won't know till you take it apart i guess. good luck.

 

the part that was cut was actually plastic and it had to be cut in order to install cams. The thing is the car has never had any problems while at had been stock, modified, or returned back to stock. Maybe, I should have told the guy that he should have considered another ITR because this had some modifications and that if the dealer found out about they would try and dick you over and void your warranty on any mechanical issue.

 

I hope you had written up a bill-of-sale with a sentence indicating, "Vehicle is sold AS-IS." And, have both parties sign it. 'cuz, it's probably the teenager's fault for fawking it up and now you've got the problem. Also, tell the older gentleman that he can't just come back to you for an explanation/warranty... I mean, he shouldn't have bought a used car, then try it out for 6mos and expect you to be responsible for everything.

I bet the fawker ran low on oil and didn't realize and drove like a stunna.

 

not exactly 'had' to be cut.

 

Well, it makes it much easier. The point is cutting that will not cause symptoms described. Untuned cams could cause poor idle and acceleration, but the car has stock cams and stock gears and ran perfect for before I sold it and I assume for the past 6 months of new ownership...until very recently. There was no written agreement b/w the two of us, but an assumption the car is sold as; similar to any used car bought from an individual. I felt so confident in the soundness of this car that I offered for the buyer to pick it one morning before I go to work (mainly b/c I didn't have time to show the car when he wanted to see it) and to take it for the day to have any mechanic give it an inspection before it was purchased. The buyer really didn't seem interested it doing that as the main concern was just trying to figure out when the car could be delivered asap. Ackward situation, I know.

 

Did the buyer know that you modded the car before? If so then I wouldn't worry about it. If it ran for 6 months no problem and then just started to f-up, then this kid most likely had something to do with it. If the buyer didn't know you modded the car and thought he had a warrenty then you should help.

 

There have been a number of posts regarding similar warranty issues.
Please search for warranty, and refer to the posts that mention the Magnusen-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. If you own an Integra still (or any honda) read your owner's warranty, then ask the new owners to read the warranty that is in their glove box.

Thea dealer has burden of proof to determine that the modification caused the problem. Hold them to that.

Good Luck.

 

[QUOTEhey, if you had cut the plastic where it is indicated, it would spew oil all over the timing belt. besides, no one in their right mind would cut it there for cam gears. am i missing something?[/QUOTE]

The plastic cover that was cut is only a back protection for the timing belt / camgears. It does not seal anything. There is seal on the camshafts (item 24 on the drawing) that prevents the oil form leaking out.
I personally cut the top of that plastic cover to be able to remove the camshatfts without having to remove the camgears (and I was in my right mind the last time I checked )


[Modified by JPP, 10:33 AM 8/13/2002]

 

Yeah, it's a little bit of a dilemma.
But contrary to George's assertion ... I can't see how you'd be liable.
Would have sealed it if there were some language such as "as is, where is", though.

 

That part has me perplexed as well. While I have not installed cams myself, I have never seen a need to cut that part on the half-dozen cam installs I have witnessed...

I'd say the dealer has the new owner by the short-and-curlies. Did you disclose the previous mods when you sold the car?

[edit] Fixed Willie's quote [/edit]


[Modified by Splat, 11:44 PM 8/13/2002]

 

...but I have NEVER bought a used car and assumed it WASN'T "as-is".

Even if it's still under factory warranty, why go back to the previous owner? It's not like the warranty was through the previous owner - it got transferred when the car was sold.

Anyways, the others are right - the dealer has the burden of proof to prove that the plastic being cut directly caused the problem. And it sure sounds like that kid hot dogged it and bent some valves. Hell, it ran perfect for 6 months! I would tell that kid's dad to ask little Johnny what REALLY happened at the street races with his buddies in the car...

- Slater


[Modified by Slater, 12:52 AM 8/14/2002]