Hello, I'm soon going to be installing a custom turbo kit on my USDM B16 OBDII 00 Civic Si. The entire kit will be put together by me and tuned by a shop. This is my first time building a turbo set-up and will like to hear your suggestions and ideas as well as feedback. The kit so far consists of the following brand new parts:

1) Garrett T3/T04B Stage 3 Wheel Turbine A/R .63 & H-3 Trim Compressor A/R .70
2) Bar & Plate 600CFM Intercooler 28"X8"X3.5" Inlet/Outlet 2.5"
3) Custom 2.5" Mandrel Bent Intercooler Piping from Turbo to Intake Manifold
4) Meutek B-Series Turbo Manifold w/ Wastegate Bung between #2 & #3 ports
5) Authentic Tial Sport 38MM Wastegate w/ .5Bar Spring (7.2 PSI)
6) Authentic Greddy BOV Type-RS
7) 2.5" Mandrel Bent Down Pipe w/ Flex Section & 02 Sensor Bung

There is still many things I need like the oil feed and return lines, all gaskets, boost/oil/water & A/F gauges, OBDII to OBDI conversion harness and OBDI ECU with tuning hardware and software. I would like to go with a Hondata s300 P28 chipped ECU. Any suggestion on brand for the 3 Bar MAP Sensor and WideBand? My goal for this project is to build a street reliable b16 turbo motor. Horsepower and boost will be in accordance with the stock internals on the bottom end so reliability and dependability are of main concern. The PR3 head has received an Alaniz Street Master port and polish with 5 angle valve job and some chamber work. Dual valve springs are in place held by titanium retainers pushing .5mm oversized exhaust stainless steel valves. Up top new Denso Iridium spark plugs and new Accel 8mm wires. Fuel delivery is fed by a Walbro 255L fuel pump purified by a new Honda filter, adjusted by a B&M FPR and monitored by a Vision Motorworks FP gauge. An Exeddy Clutch and pressure plate mated with a Fidanza lightened flywheel are bolted between the stock motor and tranny. Suspension is supported by Tokiko 5-way adjustable shocks and coil-overs and stock brakes stop the cross drilled and slotted rotors on all 4 corners.

This is the part where I ask you guys for your suggestions? What do you think of the entire setup and what can I do to improve it? Keep in mind that it is a budget build but as you can see I do want quality parts. How much horse power is expected from a setup like this and what can a stock b16 motor handle? What tuning shops with dynos have a credible rep in the Los Angeles County? Raceline Development and Church's Automotive are few I've heard about. Once again, thanks for any suggestions and feedback.

 

Not trying to be rude, but your question needs to go here. https://honda-tech.com/zeroforum/16

If anything, search and look through that forum first.

 

Man I wish I had a CUSTOM turbo kit.

Like, a turbo made JUST for me and my magic motor. No one else has this ish. Just me. Like custom y0.

You're obviously a baller and definately need a 3" downpipe and a bigger exhaust piping.

As long as you don't exceed 300whp with a good tune it should be plenty reliable. And with a good tune and up to date servicing you'll even get decent gas mileage.

BTW I love how you word your mods, "Car is supported by _____ and X flywheel and clutch are directly bolted and synthesized between the motor and tranny.

Classic

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek forever guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW I love how you word your mods, "Car is supported by _____ and X flywheel and clutch are directly bolted and synthesized between the motor and tranny.

Classic </TD></TR></TABLE>

better that than the grammatical clusterfuck of a thread we're all so accustomed to seeing from 90% of the other members right?

ok you don't need a 3 bar map sensor for only 7 psi....do you plan on tuning this yourself? if you don't, most reputable shops have wideband o2 sensors on hand for tuning purposes so that would save you a good bit of money right there. What injectors do you have? what kind of fuel pressure are you running?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1jdmferio &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

better that than the grammatical clusterfuck of a thread we're all so accustomed to seeing from 90% of the other members right?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, I should probably bask in the rarity.

Save the $300 and just use the shops wideband. Like ferio said. I 100% agree with that. Unless you're a baller, from the setup it sounds like it.

 

3" down pipe sounds awesome and I definitely considered it for faster spool-ups, but I opted for a 2.5" because I want to keep AC and power steering. So 300whp is very realistic for this set-up considering a stock bottom end? I was in view of buying a 3 bar map sensor because at some point, in the future, was planning on running an electronic boost controller with more boost but still keeping the car street dependable. I'm definitely not tuning the car my self as I have very little knowledge and experience with turbochargers, therefore I wanted a wideband to keep an eye out for A/F mixtures. Stock injectors are now feeding the motor, but I do plan on getting RC 310cc or higher with near stock fuel pressure. Once again guys, thanks for any advise or suggestions.

 

Yay for intelligent noobs!!!!!



So glad you're not trying to use 1000cc injectors like every other boosting nub in the place.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Evilparadize &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> but I do plan on getting RC 310cc or higher with near stock fuel pressure. Once again guys, thanks for any advise or suggestions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

try atleast 450cc for 7-8 psi....310s are for something like a mildly built all motor application

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek forever guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So glad you're not trying to use 1000cc injectors like every other boosting nub in the place. </TD></TR></TABLE>

1000cc injectors would work fine if you ran say a 50% duty cycle on 8-10 psi and fuel pressure in the mid to low 50 psi range....1000cc at 50% is 500cc

 

Stock DSM 440 CC injectors will plug right in and are cheap beacuse ever DSM guy thats built has like 1200cc injectors... run higher pressure and lower duty cycle for better fuel economy from higher atomization. check out craigslist in ur area or ebay,

Im building a very similar setup except im using a much smaller turbo (looking for about 7psi as well, but with much faster spool) and air-water inter-cooling using a DSM custom enclosed inter-cooler and an OEM air conditioning condenser for the radiator. Make sure to tap your pan properly, it is very important where you position the return line, and i would recommended using a oil-filter-plate adapter for oil feed as the pressure will be solid and it will be clean oil! again 3bar MAP is totally unnecessary... and Neptune is far better then hondataIMO, depends on who is tuning it tho. I am personally aiming to do a chrome setup on a chipped/socketedP30 and tune it all by myself via in-car computer, risky i know but w/e. IF YOU PLAN on running much more than 7PSI, detonation and high cylinder pressure are going to be your worst enemy. i wouldn't run your car with turbo for any more than 6-8k miles without replacing the head gasket with a cometic fatty one for lower compression and using ARP head studs and a block guard. all of it is just insurance but MAN you will thank the gods of combustion when you still have a motor in a year. Rods and 9.5:1 pistons would be a nice future upgrade a well, as stock rods can handle low boost and moderate RPM's but if you're constantly beating on it racing and whatnot, getting you engine HOT with highway runs and the like i think your engine will last, NOT! make sure to run the dense-est coolant mix possible (less antifreeze) and use RP coolant additives! hot motor=destruction. thermal capicaty of a B16 is very low, any more than 12-15 seconds of WOT with a turbo gets everything so damn hot your wear increases by like 400%.

good luck with the build! aiming for the 13's?

 

wow good info here

 

Sounds like a rediculous build for 13's.



We had my room-mates purple hatch run mid 12's on stock internals/headgasket and radiator. He's put 12,000 miles on it since.

That all sounds like BS to me, but it might be different in the Arctic weather of Alaska.

 

With stock DSM injectors, won’t I need either inline resistors or a resistor box? I will be tapping the oil pan after a test fit with the manifold and turbo in place. Do you recommend soldering the fitting or using a screw in fitting with high temp silicon? The oil-filter-plate is also known as a sandwich plate right? I think it is a much cleaner install and more efficient oil delivery. As far as tuning software and hardware go, it’s still open. I’ve just heard endless amount of positive info for Hondata and their tuning capabilities. I have not heard much of Neptune but will look further into it. As far as the ECU, what do you recommend? I think the P30 has knock sensor out-put unlike the P28, but I think with nearly perfect tuning, I shouldn’t have to worry much with low boost on the P28. A Cometic head gasket and ARP bolts are definitely in the blend, although I’ve read that Cometic is almost as good as a genuine Honda gasket. I’ve also heard that a Block Guard will create a hot spot between the top cylinder walls and the head causing the gasket to blow, and since I’ll be running low boost, sleeves are not a priority. Great info all around, thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek forever guy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
We had my room-mates purple hatch run mid 12's on stock internals/headgasket and radiator. He's put 12,000 miles on it since.

That all sounds like BS to me, but it might be different in the Arctic weather of Alaska.</TD></TR></TABLE>

To each His own, alot listed may be unnecessary for 7psi, but i would like to be able to turn the boost up in the future and IMO youre much better off building the foundation of a motor to support more HP than throwing boost at it and getting away with it, i have seen many a turbo honda blow blue smoke after highway runs where its like 5 or 6 minitues of WOT, i have seen pistons that looked like a small bomb went off on top of them, Ive seen blocks with rods thrown through them so bad you could see through the other side... so call it unnecessary, which it probably is to a certain level of tuning and aggressive boosting, but i would rather not be replacing **** that i fried in a hurry to get my car running agian and have un-planned expense. rather just buy the insurance now and build the motor right.

PS, right now here in anchorage it is about noon. the ambient air temp is 43deg F. makes a huge difference!!!


Modified by all_motorsi at 12:54 PM 5/19/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by all_motorsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Rods and 9.5:1 pistons would be a nice future upgrade a well, as stock rods can handle low boost and moderate RPM's but if you're constantly beating on it racing and whatnot, getting you engine HOT with highway runs and the like i think your engine will last, NOT! make sure to run the dense-est coolant mix possible (less antifreeze) and use RP coolant additives! hot motor=destruction. thermal capicaty of a B16 is very low, any more than 12-15 seconds of WOT with a turbo gets everything so damn hot your wear increases by like 400%.

good luck with the build! aiming for the 13's?

</TD></TR></TABLE>


what the hell.... Man... First of all a "dense-est" coolant mix possible would mean to run 100% antifreeze. You clarified what you meant after but you should try and make sure you type it correctly the first time so someone doesn't skim what you're saying and go away with an incorrect opinion.

Second, could you please explain why the "thermal capacity" of a b16 is so low? Also could you please explain what you mean by thermal capacity?

Thirdly, how are you able to determine the amount of engine wear during full throttle use over a "12-15 second" period or any amount of time for that matter?

Last of all, I will tell you this. If an engine runs super hot at wide open throttle, all motor, boost/FI or with spray, it means the engine isn't TUNED properly! How do you think factory equipped turbo cars can run boost or FI for the life of the car without self-destructing? (assuming regular maintenance and tuning is done).


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16a4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow good info here</TD></TR></TABLE>


I would question that.

 

well let me clarify more, i SAID densest but i meant highest thermal capacity, sorry.

Specific heat capacity antifreeze - 2.38 kJ/kgK
Specific heat capacity water - 4.187 kJ/kgK

water absorbs more calories of heat from your engine per volume/rate of flow than antifreeze.

Thermal capacity is the ability of the engine to retain heat. the higher the capacitance the more thermal energy the engine (block) can store internally. not to be confused with thermal conductivity.. this has more to do with the cooling system's interaction with the heat sink of the engine block. conductivity of a B16 is VERY HIGH due to all aluminum construction and excellent water jacket and cooling passage design.

Due to low CAPACITANCE.... at WOT... instantaneously generated heat by the combustion process tends to rapidly heat up the tops of the pistons, the sleeves of the cylinder walls and cylinder head which rely on the ability of the conductive cooling system to draw heat off these parts. in a heavier set engine say a 2JZ, the cast iron has a MUCH HIGHER capacitance so it will internally abosrb more heat without raising the actual components temperature to dangerous levels. ALUMINUM engines on the other hand will heat up so damn quickly from the smallest event, the aluminum components become heat soaked very quickly, so while cast iron is still absorbing heat from the combustion, aluminum is immediately matching the heat being displayed to it and therefore HEAT SOAKING the block. a nicely tuned and turbo's B16 will become partially HEAT SOAKED (where the entire engine block has reached throughout very high temperature and can no longer itself absorb much more heat, relying SOLELY on the cooling system and radiator to disperse heat. this is dangerous beacuse of things like cavitation and fluid dynamics provide a very unstable outlet. if this cooling flow was to be interrupted for even a second at this point, the engine would start to wear itself excessively, as the increased expansion of components push the engine out of it;s tolerance range very quickly. why do you think that sleeve/piston tolerances are so much different from a N/A motor to a turbo motor? to allow for more thermal expansion so that the motor is within tolerance under high load. stock pistons on a B16 are not designed for this as they are close tolerance from the factory. pushing the motor for long periods of time under BOOST is very dangerous and WILL ABOSULETLY 100% reduce the life of your engine significantly. 12-15 seconds is very conservative, but it should (hopefully) be long enough to do a 1/4mile pass and get up over 100mph.

This is taking forever but i figured id just let you know why i say what i do so newbs will stop flaming... and intelligent comments are greatly appreciated.. im not making myself out to know everything i am still learning like everyone else...

due to the extreme cylinder pressures and more violent combustion of a turbocharged motor, the heat build up is more extreme. Most FACTORY TURBOCHARGED VEHICLES offset this with sloppier tolerances, conservative tuning and LOWER COMPRESSION. B16a is 10.2:1, very high compression indeed for a turbo car, but not unheard of. thermal expansion and stresses in the molecular level that occur at very high temperatures cause weakening of the components and the internal stresses of the parts that were created during casting become extreme, causing cracking, warping, and the like. you have to engineer around this to have a reliable factory turbo car.

I think i just answered this


all being said if you dont give a **** about reliability or that last ounce of HP from precise tuning and friction-free operation dont listen to me.... and 40,000 miles fron now we will see who still has an engine.

 

O.....K.....! Well.....I guess since an entirely separate book about this can be well written, no need for dumb questions like mine. Thanks people for the great advise.....I think! Maybe I'll scrap the Si turbo project and dump 30 plus grand on a factory turbo charged car, or a sail.

 

lol don't do that, are still in need of oil feed and return lines?? http://greddy.com/products/?Category=oil check here out(you probably already have though) for some other products you might want.

And like everyone else has said, AROUND 300whp can be supported by a stock bottom end. nice headwork btw.

 

I think you have read, learned, know just enough, about this topic and the big words you were using, to get yourself into trouble. Like the information you gave, the big words you used were being used out of proper context and were incorrect in most cases when you used them. Some people (not saying you are) try to sound intelligent by using big words and technical terms to mask what they lack in knowledge. I'll try to clarify a few things here:


While interesting to look at, it's really not relevant to anyone so it could have been more easily stated by you as:


This is an extremely wordy attempt to say some very simple things:
Aluminum absorbs and is able to dissipate heat faster than cast iron/steel. You suggest that a B16 has "very high heat conductivity" as if it's unique among Honda engines. The reality is that it's ability to absorb and dissipate heat is about the same as every other Honda engine since they are all similar construction.


I believe what you are trying to say here is that a cast iron block will be able to absorb and store more engine heat from the combustion process without feeding it back into the critical areas like the piston and head. In your mind, you feel this is an advantage over a Honda engine with "low capacitance".

The line of thinking you are working along is more applicable to brakes than engines. An engine that is able to transfer heat away from the combustion process, quickly and efficiently will be able to run more ignition timing, more boost, leaner air/fuel ratios and make more power, reliably. If the engine absorbed it like you suggested, it's going to hold that heat close to the combustion process, increasing the likely-hood of pre-ignition and detonation etc...not good. This is how "hotter" plugs work vs colder ones, it's their ability to hold heat vs release it.

Old school muscle car guys would always run aluminum heads for not only weight savings but it gave them the ability to run more ignition timing, more compression, on lower octane fuel. This was because the aluminum was better able to transfer the heat away from the combustion chamber. Cast iron heads would hold the heat "there".


NO ENGINE will heat up that quickly unless it's improperly tuned and running lean. Even if the aluminum was absorbing heat that fast, it would also be releasing it into the cooling system nearly as fast. Cast iron wouldn't be able to do that and the heat build up in the combustion chamber could cause catastrophic failure.


Again, the very high temperatures you keep talking about DO NOT HAPPEN in a properly tuned engine. Cavitation? It's a water pump, not an out board propeller. Unless the engine/water pump was being spun well beyond it's intended RPM range, cavitation IS NOT a factor. Cavitation and Fluid dynamics provide a very unstable outlet??? Fluid dynamics is scientific theory and principles...it sounds cool but has no place or meaning in the way you used it here.

Cooling flow interrupted for even a second?? what would interrupt coolant flow at this point, enough to affect anything unless it was some catastrophic failure?? Again, the potential engine damage you keep referring to cannot happen unless the car is improperly tuned.


Tolerances are different because of the types of materials being used in the 2 engines, not the fact that one is boosted and one is NA. Factory built boosted motors tend to use forged internals which have different expansion rates than stock NA pistons do, therefore the clearances are different. If your theory were true, it would be impossible to boost or spray a NA motor without serious reliability problems or complete failures. We know this is not true.



It is NOT dangerous as long as the engine is PROPERLY TUNED. Increased engine wear will also not be a factor.



Extreme cylinder pressures? no. Increased cylinder pressure, yes. Violent combustion..no. This is the biggest misconception about the combustion process for any engine that runs boost or spray. It is a bigger more powerful explosion yes, but it is still controlled. A violent combustion would be due to pre-ignition or some other event like that, it is not from simply stuffing more air and fuel into a cylinder.

Your reference to "sloppier clearances" is only true in the sense that they may be looser because of the forged pistons requiring it. Sloppy tolerances otherwise do NOT lend themselves to engine reliability in any way. Factory turbo cars will sometimes run on lower compression for emissions purposes, ease of tuning and to run on everyday pump gas. Their compression ratio can vary, but I wouldn't say they run a lot lower than 10.2:1. Your comments about thermal expansion and their effect on parts is somewhat correct, but again these temperature extremes and fluctuations have to be so great that in order for them to happen, the car would not be tuned correctly, therefore reliability would suffer.


Taking the time to go through this whole post and address everything is a PITA for me. I'm doing it because there are a lot of newbs and people with little or no knowledge reading these posts that would walk away completely misinformed, if not confused, if I didn't take the time to try and clarify and correct it. I realize you are still learning, as we all are and that you are enthusiastic to try and help people but sometimes misinformation is worse than no information at all. If a topic is a little over your head (people know when it is) don't try to contribute unless you know what you're talking about. Try sitting back and reading more and contributing when you can. The knowledge will all come in time, just keep working at it.