Im brand new to the honda-tech community, as of now i own a 91 accord lx auto, w/f20a sohc and matching ecu. My car treats me well but im looking for a car that i can really spend my time and money on and it be worth it from a performance standpoint. Anyway I live in the mojave desert where there is tons of dirt and i like to do a little rallying here and there with my accord (haha) Im looking into getting into rallyx with the scca but i want a better format than my accord. So what i am thinking is a civic since it has such a huge aftermarket base, with some products being able to make the crossover to rally functionality and others im not too sure about. So i have begun my quest on finding a Civic 92-95 either coupe or hatch, not too sure which one would actually be better but im guessing hatch just because of lower weight and shorter wheel base. Looking to do a b18b swap and hopefully turbo (im liking the low end torque). Not too sure about transmission though, cause i wanna keep the gears short for fast acceleration out of corners plus i dont need top speed, (not sure if d series trans will bolt onto b seires engines) so if you guys wanna chime in on what you think will be a worthy trans for rally, but with whatever trans i go with im looking to dropping a helical lsd into it off the bat. after that pretty much all my attention will be focused on suspension, weight loss and tuning. everything will be based on buget and if it can take a beating. not too sure if anyone has embarked upon a similar quest, so wish me well. ill be asking questions here and there about this and that.

 

welcome to honda- tech. Please read all the stickie's and rules before posting.

People will bitch and i agree sometimes as well. but paragraphs are much easier on the eyes in stead of a cluster **** on words..lol

Read through these threads and they should provide you with the information that you need.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=878010

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=642479

 

well usually people prefer rwd or awd when rallying cause of traction and drifting.
why dont you get an older subaru?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eg4usdm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well usually people prefer rwd or awd when rallying cause of traction and drifting.
why dont you get an older subaru? </TD></TR></TABLE>


We used a CRX at LSPR and Snow Drift without any problems. Nothing wrong with a FWD rally car.

Oh and BTW, SCCA dropped club rally so unless you some how get on subaru rally team usa then there really isnt any way for you to do it.

 

no a d series tranny will not bolt up to a b series. but if your looking for a short gear ratioed b series tranny, then a jdm ys1 tranny is HELLA short and you can get them with a lsd stock. the only problem is is that it seems as though all of these trannys have fallen off the face of the earth. but there will be somone on here with one for sale sooner or later.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eg4usdm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well usually people prefer rwd or awd when rallying cause of traction and drifting.
why dont you get an older subaru? </TD></TR></TABLE>

not true, JWRC (the feeder for the WRC) as well as the Super 1600s (British Rally) run FWD cars. you never see RWD cars in stage rally anymore, aside from on local levels. hill climb is a different beast tho, you see lots of high HP RWD cars there.

if you want to stage rally locally, a AWD car will put you into a much more competitive class than a 2WD car would as well. locally i see alot of 2WD guys rallying GTI/Golfs/rabbits, Merkur, RX-7, Saab, Volvo, Geo Metro (dont laugh, a Metro won P Class at an event this year), 2WD Subarus, and a Civic here and there. don't expect alot of rally specific stuff for Civic, its not a popular rally platform. but there is some stuff out there, just gotta find it.

the best thing i can advise if you are looking into stage rally, is dont build a car without a rule book in hand. you need to pick a class, and build a car for that class. an engine swap will put you into open class right off the bat, and you dont want to be there with the turbo AWD cars, they will eat up a 2wd car

 

I read your post and I noticed that you said the hatch has a shorter wheel base than a coupe. From what I read a few days ago the wheel bases are the same.

I would look into getting a CRX because its short and isn't as tall (for lack of a better word) than a hatch or coupe.

Anyway, I hope to see progress of this soon to be rally car.

 

EG Civic hatches make fine rally cars. One just won it's class at Susquehanna Trail Pro Rally in PA this June. One was running in the top 3 overall, yes...I said overall...at Rally NY a few years ago before it's tranny let go right in front of me. I can't rember what the two new rally organizations call the class, but the EG is perfect for what used to be called Group 2 in SCCA terminology. You can even swap engines and trannys around in that class as long as you stick with Honda/Acura stuff. I'd go with a B18B or CRV B20 for torque with a B16A or Type-R tranny for the low final drive. There's always ATS final drive if you need it and I would recomend an ATS or KAAZ diff over the stock helical type. However, first things first. Get some autocross and rallycross experience and make sure you get all of the best safety equipment, a strong cage and a suspension that will take the abuse before you start building more horsepower. Stock HP is plenty to wreck the car and hurt yourself pretty bad. I should know. I stuffed a VW Golf at The Team O'Neil Rally School.

 

Thanx for all your guys responses. I plan on going b18b and looking into b16 tranny (helical diff. prolly quaife), am thinking of integra steering rack because of less turns to lock. custom built roll cage. looking into brakes still. cant really find anything good that'll fit smaller rims. anyone know of a brake setup that will allow 15" rims, all i can think of is to run axxis pads and powerstop slotted rotors, with stainless brake lines and going disc in the rear with same settup. Ill prolly run stock height and go with a full coilover setup that is rebuildable. custom fab some skid plates. any other ideas? Ill start off with rally cross then look for a more specific rally organization, maybe something like Type_RS_59 posted.

 

I don't know how much heat gets built up in rally, but if oil temps become a problem you may want to look into an oil cooler.

My idea would be to either run a line from the back of the block where the oil sensor is and run that to an oil cooler, and then tap your oil pan. Basically what you would do for a turbo. Or even use a sandwhich adaptor that goes between the block and oil filter.

I'm not sure if you plan on going turbo, but if you do I would reccomend a small turbo w/ a log style manifold.

I've got a TD04 w/ log style manifold and I'm hitting boost at about 2300rpm.

 

Hrm... I'm pretty sure you're not actually involved with rallying and have only watched it on TV.
RWD is typically slower then FWD for rally--the quickest 2wd rally cars in the US and the world are pretty much without exception front drivers. Front wheel drive cars such as the Hondas are even quicker in many scenarios to competitive AWD cars with a lot more power. I'd say at a given US rally most of the cars there are front wheel drive.

Also, just because a car is a Subaru doesn't mean it would be a competitive rally car.

A couple problems with getting an older Subaru: They are usually heavy and slow. There aren't usually a lot of performance parts for them. If you aren't going to get a WRX you will have a hard time being competitive in Production GT or Open classes (or their equivs for NASA).

Plus if you want to get started with rally, at least with Rally America, you have to start out with a Group 2 or Production class car, which means 2 wheel drive. Most of the Subarus have all-wheel drive.

A Honda is a great starter car. They are light and have good horsepower to weight ratios. There are a lot of performance parts for them, and replacement parts are cheap.

I may be misreading... But there are still lots of ways to rally in the US. Rally America took over for SCCA's ClubRally Program. The NASA rally program is thriving. CARS is putting on a lot of events in Canada.

First off, I can tell you're exicted about all this stuff, but the very first thing you need to do is find out about the organizations you want to run with and read the rulebooks. You need to pick a class before you start worrying about building the car. The motor swap will put you in Group 2, which is fine, the car can be competitive. Don't even think about going turbo, there is no need for it, plus that would bump you into a Group 5 class which you couln't compete in anyway as a novice. You have to read the rule book and look at the class rules before you start building or you're going to end up either being non-competitive, out classed, or have to sell a bunch of stuff.

Plus you've never rallied so you don't know what you need to build a competitive rally car. I'd recommend buying a rally car that is already built--some other guy will have had more experience with what works and doesn't work, and will have spent all the money fixing the stuff that wasn't tough enough. Then build your second car. If you're wanting to start driving rallies and not talking about it you're best off buying a car.


If you do want to build it, get an EG or EF (EF is lighter and wider then an EG) or better yet an Integra (has better motor options for Production class, plus has longer wheelbase which is good), get a seriously well designed roll cage (go to a shop that specializes in rally, because there is a big difference between a Club Racing cage for road racing and a rally cage), a rally suspension (your average "adjustable coilovers" isn't going to fly, you need a real rally suspension and they aren't going to be cheap) and compete in Production class. All you can do in Production is basically Suspension and Safety, plus an LSD.

For LSDs you don't want a Quaife for rally. Get a clutch-type, like the KAAZ or ATS. For rally, a welded differential is a great option as well, and is much cheaper. Don't worry about gearing right now, isn't that critical. Shorter the gearing the better, but you won't be able to take advantage of performance gains much for the first season anyway.

To give you an idea of what it takes to build a car, look at my Integra GSR (my second rally car), I spent about $3k on the car, $2k on the suspension (which is about as cheap as you can go), $2k on the cage, $1k on seats (from my original car), $700 for rally computer and intercom and headsets, $1k on wheels and tires, $600 on LSD, $400 for rotors and pads, $200 on skid plates, perhaps a $1-2k on remaining misc stuff. Don't forget about $1k for safety equipment. This is for *Production* class. Only minimum amounts of stuff is allowed, no motor mods, etc. You can start out with a cheaper car, but to prepare a rally car properly, you're going to be spending about $8k. You can do it cheaper, but that is a good indication of what you're going to be spending.

You can buy compete cars for less then $5k.


The other thing to bear in mind about rally is that your car doesn't even really matter all that much beyond safety. There are guys that are in a 2 wheel drive, 140hp cars that are competing for overall rally leads, beating handfulls of $45k WRXs, Evos, etc. You can come out with a pimp rally car with tons of power and still be at the back of the pack. Rally is probably one of the toughest kinds of motorsports to learn. Almost without exception experience will determine your finishing position.

The only way to get competitive is to have a safe, reliable car. It doesn't have to be 'quick' in the traditional drag racing sense. It just has to finish rallies and be safe. People get caught up on building the cars (I'm the same way), but reality is that you have to finish to learn. Getting stuck off-course or crashing out sucks. The guy that bought my old 510 which is perhaps 120hp, is experienced enough to kick *** against cars with twice the power. Its all about skill, and the only way to get it is to start racing.

 

^Great info.

Can you tell me anything about how to get involved in enduro/supercar/indy racing?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nota-eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^Great info.

Can you tell me anything about how to get involved in enduro/supercar/indy racing? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks. I charge for that kind of information. :&gt;

For those that are interested in rallying, check out

Special Stage (US Rally resource)
http://www.specialstage.com

Rally Classified
http://www.rallyclassified.com/

My website
http://www.fatboyraceworks.com

My Image Gallery
http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gallery/

 

just picked up the cylinder head for the first piece of the project. B18b head complete with intake manifold and exhaust manifold also $15 what a steal! planning on adding crower stage 2 turbo cams aftermarket cam seals, crower springs and ti retainers. stainless 1mm over valves. and port myslelf. this will be the boost head...let me know what you think

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by want2rally &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just picked up the cylinder head for the first piece of the project. B18b head complete with intake manifold and exhaust manifold also $15 what a steal! planning on adding crower stage 2 turbo cams aftermarket cam seals, crower springs and ti retainers. stainless 1mm over valves. and port myslelf. this will be the boost head...let me know what you think</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't stress how important it is to real the rule books before you start buying parts.

First off, you won't be allowed to run that car as a novice rally driver, at least with Rally America. It is required that novice drivers start out with a Production or Group 2 class car. What you're doing will put you in Group 5 (over 2.4L adjusted displacement, open class).

Plus I don't think it is a good idea to run a turbocharged Honda for rally. They tend to be high-strung and problematic, and with rally you want something that is dead simple and reliable. A lot of the most competitive Hondas don't even run the VTEC swaps, the LS B18A/B tends to be the most popular combination because they are very, very reliable.

In a typical rally weekend you will drive your rally car up to 400-500 miles. 150+ racing miles over rough terrain. Do you think you can build a car with a homemade turbo setup, FMIC, what have you, that can survive that kind of beating consistently? Even production cars, motors that are designed for reliability from the factory get hammered on a rally stage.

Start off with something simple and just start racing, get some seat time in. Hell, just *go* to a couple of rallies and work as a crewperson. After racing a season or two you'll understand why I'm saying what I'm saying.

 

Rotten, I saw some of the pics and I couldn't help but wonder. What sized rim are most of you guys running? Looked like a 16" or 17" w/ a pretty big tire on it.

This has inspired me to look around for some road-course racing in my area, once I get rid of the damn rice.

You have any buddies that do road-racing? I'd like to talk to them about classes and stuff like that. I'm not even looking to be competitive for awhile, just to go and get my feet wet, run at the back of the pack, ect.

 

Rotten..i got what your saying.. but is it true that ivern if you upgrade suspension components that puts you in a different class. what ill prolly end up doing is completely stock for a while then, b18b swap with appropriate suspension setu, thanx for all your advice. ill be keeping the head as a spare/work in progress/get it built then swap type deal. thanx again!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nota-eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rotten, I saw some of the pics and I couldn't help but wonder. What sized rim are most of you guys running? Looked like a 16" or 17" w/ a pretty big tire on it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We actually run a 14". With the Integra we can legally run a 15" which I may do next season--they are easier to get.

The biggest size gravel rally tire that anyone uses is 15".

Gravel rally tires are constructed differently then most street tires--the sidewalls are 4-5 times as thick as street tires so you don't get quite the lateral flex that you'd normally get. Plus the extra profile becomes part of the suspension... if you used a low profile tire, you'd bend a lot of wheels.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You have any buddies that do road-racing? I'd like to talk to them about classes and stuff like that. I'm not even looking to be competitive for awhile, just to go and get my feet wet, run at the back of the pack, ect.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I road race a CRX as well, and have some friends that are into it. I'd suggest sticking with a Improved Touring car... limited modifications, lots of competition, doesn't take much to build a competitive car, can have a lot of fun for not a lot of money.

Building an ITA car is, IMHO, a lot cheaper than building a rally car as well. Plus your weekend expenses are a fraction of what they are for rally.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by want2rally &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Rotten..i got what your saying.. but is it true that ivern if you upgrade suspension components that puts you in a different class. what ill prolly end up doing is completely stock for a while then, b18b swap with appropriate suspension setu, thanx for all your advice. ill be keeping the head as a spare/work in progress/get it built then swap type deal. thanx again!</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, in rallysuspension upgrades are the one thing that you can do in any class... as long as you don't modify the mounting points. You can even reinforce the mounting points, etc. (see our gallery). This is because no stock suspension is going to be tough enough for rally.

Basically the Rally America (http://www.rally-america.com) classes break down like this (although you should go and download the rulebook from the site).

Open
Just about anything goes, turbo, AWD, etc. Turbo has an inlet restriction. Novices can not run this class.

Group N
FIA Homogulated class for WRXes, etc. Novices can not run this class.

Production GT
Basically production cars with adjusted displacement over 2.6L. Cars like WRXes, turbocharged AWD cars. Modifications essentially limited to suspension and safety. Novices can not run this class.

Group 5
Open class, two wheel drive, over 2.4L of adjusted displacement. Rotaries. Anything goes pretty much but has to be 2 wheel drive. These tend to be cars like RX7s, etc. Novices can not run this class.

Group 2
Open class, two wheel drive, under 2.4L adjusted displacement. Most Hondas, Volkswagens. Anyhing goes but has to be 2 wheel drive and under 2.4L adjusted. Novices can run this class.

Production
Production cars, adjusted displacement under 2.6L. Only mods are suspension and safety. Novices can run this class.


Adjusted displacement means that there are multipliers. From memory, may be off a bit:
1.8x Rotary
1.7x Supercharged/Turbocharged
1.3x All wheel drive
1.2x 4 Valves per Cyl
1.1x 3 Valves per Cyl
1.1x Variable cam Timing
Diesels and pushrods get a discount

So my Integra is 1800cc x 1.2 (4 valves per cyl) x 1.1 (VTEC) or 2376cc, which puts it in Production Class or Group 2.

The motor you're talking about earlier is a 1800cc x 1.7 (turbo) x 1.2 (4 valve) x 1.1 or 4040cc, which would put you in Group 5.

You're in California, check the California Rally Series page

http://www.californiarallyseries.com/

All the rallies in CA are pretty much run by them, so you'll be using their rules and classes which are similar.

 

Post some pic I want to see the Rally Honda's Be proud and show your rally side!!!!

 

They make a d2b conversion kit for trans due to the fact b series has sk many more trans options. They makes conversion kits d2b, and h2b.

 

Welcome to the board rookie.

You just "corrected" a response to this thread that was made 14 YEARS AGO. At that time, the statement was in fact correct... D2B adapter plates were not commercially available.

Just out of curiosity, how did you find this old dusty thread before you decided to create an account/username and respond ???

 

Haha