As the title states im making a change from b series to h series for obvious reasons. My question has to do w/ running forged pistons in stock blocks. My local tuner said I couldnt run forged pistons in the obd1 blocks because of some bad interaction w/ the stock liners ( obd1 blocks are closed deck right?). So to do some further research I came to the most logical place on the web "Prelude" forum here on honda-tech. I looked at the frequently asked questions for my problem at hand and found something that sorta talked about it but stated no real factual information. So I am looking for a more definitive answer to these questions-

Which blocks are ok to run forged pistons on stock sleeves/liners and which are not?
Why is it not safe?
On the safe one is it as safe as running forged pistons in stock b series sleeves?
Any one got an h22 w/ forged 12.5's in stock sleeves, w/ a stage 2 cam? If so what type of power you makin? Any one w/ similar setup running a dry shot of nitrous on top of mods listed above???
What are the real lows about having an h22? (maybe i should ask this in the hybrid forum....)

Im far from a newb so spare me the flaming. I have focused on b series for the past 4 years of my life and never really gave h22's the time of day. I have been through every combination of ideas for a b series a million time already. Now its time for the H! Hook me up guys!

 

Odd that no one answered, they seem like reasonable questions.

Well heres my input. It is not ok to run forged pistons on ANY stock H22 block.(regardless of the year.) It is not advisable (safe???) because all H22'ss have a special sleeve lining known as FRM.(research that) basiclly FRM is not compatible with forged pistons So sleeving is a must. By 12.5 I assume you mean compression ratio. No one that I know of has 12.5 on a strret car. I dont beleive thats feasable with pump gas. However there is a guy who has 12.0 on his strret car (91 octane gas) as well as some other mods(cams, headwork ...etc) and he's making around 250hp and about 180 ft lbs to the wheels. I'd say the biggest draw back to owning an H22 is the tranny. The gear ratios suck ***. Ricers think these motors suck because they dont rev to 10,000 rpm's but thats because they dont need to. You'll make plenty of power in the lower rpm range. (only on a Honda would 8000 rpm's be considered low )

 

Theres also an adaptor plate made so a B series tranny, axles, flywheel and cluth hook up to the H series engines..just some minor work need for the tranny mount..Do a search on adaptor plate..


And as cbr-7 said about the blocks i agree, if going forged, you got to sleeve..

 

There's a million people that have 12.5 to 1 compression on pump gas and daily drive it on the street where have you been? **** you can buy 94 octane all day long in ohio!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shdriver99 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a million people that have 12.5 to 1 compression on pump gas and daily drive it on the street in ohio!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hehe, i know i skewed that quote a lil bit towards the bad side, but i did it mostly for fun

However, correct me if im wrong, but the majority of states carry nothing higher than 92. But even on 12.5, thats still a really high comp ratio that requires nothing short of meticulous tuning.

But as for the actual motor, what cbr said is accurate. But also mind the auto timing belt tensioner found on all h22's as those are prone to failing, which equals massive valvetrain damage. A lot of people steal h23 manual tensioners and do a conversion. Something else to look into, i think there is a how-to somewhere on here as well.

Good Luck

 

There is one manufacture that makes high compression pistons that can go in stock H22 sleeves. The manufacuter is called "Mahle".They are a company that makes pisotns for european cars I think?

Here, check this link out. I was seriously considering getting these but have heard no experience from anyone.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...wItem

 

my $0.02...

1) mahle pistons have not been proven to work, so let's not promote them just yet. no one can even get a call back from their customer service!! so what will happen when your motor goes Ka-Bloo-Ey and it's the pistons fault? no customer service
2) hank is right, the manual tensioner is the way to go. i killed 3 auto tensioners just on type-s cams alone
3) hank is right, MOST states carry nothing over 92, and california has this watered down crap they push as california grade 91. so that comp. ratio won't fly here. some guys build up to the 12 range, but the H sweet spot on CA 91 is right about 11.0:1. but i see you're east coast, so you know what gas is available to you, so you can tune for that.
4) cb7-r is correct about the sleeves. you cannot run forged pistons, only honda pistons or JUN 12.5:1 pistons, which also require an overbore of .25mm. but they are awesome...at $900 a set...if you can find a set...

now you can pull upwards of 9000 rpm on an H, just like a B, but the H will pull harder. and yes, the power band is down lower, but that's where your torque is. there are some H motors just pull and pull, but the bottom end can't take any more, so the redline is set around 8k-9k.

lots of H guys use nitrous, and run low 14s, high 13s all day long at the track in 5th gens. it works, you just have to tune accordingly.

my thought about the biggest drawback is the final drive on the transmission. at 80mph, you're pulling 4000 rpm. i wish it had a 6th gear. B-series trans are not much better, unless you utilize an LS fifth or something like that.

oh, and welcome to the honda big block club.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cb7-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well heres my input. It is not ok to run forged pistons on ANY stock H22 block.(regardless of the year.) It is not advisable (safe???) because all H22'ss have a special sleeve lining known as FRM.(research that) basiclly FRM is not compatible with forged pistons So sleeving is a must</TD></TR></TABLE>Then would someone explain to me why Wiseco told me i could in my 95 H22A, they said that the FRM wasn't introduced till 97+.

 

hey thanks everyone for the responses. I appreciate your input. As for the 12.5 to 1 comp ratio. Im not worried. we have 93 everywhere and 101 every 40 square miles. Not to mention I AM meticulous about my tuning. I have no problem pulling timing for daily driving or even adding octane booster. This stuff about not being able to put forged pistons into the stock block sucks and it might have actually turned me off from the whole h22 thing; i to say I am bummed!!!! My planned seemed so good that I wondered why no one else had done it. Now that know my plan is flawed I am goin to have to go with plan B..... Turbo D!. I am still wanting to hear more input on this subject so feel free to chime in.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueLude94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Then would someone explain to me why Wiseco told me i could in my 95 H22A, they said that the FRM wasn't introduced till 97+.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Buddy,

thats the first time Ive heard something that ridiculous from them and I believe you just have to be mistaken. Check out the 3rd gen prelude stuff and you might see it goes back a ways... FRM isnt new by any means and I promise every h22 ever made uses FRM sleeves....


Although useless to state as 10 others have, it is required you sleeve the block... The company stated above needs to be avoided until they get their stuff straight and all claims made by them should be considered null and void by all. These are not rumors and I have first hand experience with their customer service. Its not worth the risk honestly. I understand there are people out there who wont listen and be pissed off when they learn the hard way, but they also are the ones payin $70 a bottle for Honda genuine blinker fluid.

 

Here we go again.

 

Well there is a link to there website just at the top of the page and if you look at the H22 is SPECIFICALLY says 92-95 Iron bore, 96+ FRM must be resleeved, For Technical Assistance -1-440-951-6600, Now You can argue with them, I Just asked for a explination, So wheres it at?

 

All H series motors use FRM.

 

Just heard my 12.5:1 Wiseco's are ready for pickup. $550 by the way. I have absolutely no fears of running that compression. We also have excellent fuel here in Houston. 93 or higher. So that's part of the equation. About the liners..... I have both blocks. The older one is called the A1 and the newer one the A4. Closed vs. Open Deck. 50mm Mains vs. 55mm Mains. In those orders respectively. You decide which fits your needs. I always thought they were both FRM. "Fiber Reinforced Material" I didn't think the Pre 95's were different. As I look at either one, they both have that light Grey Sheen on them that typifies an FRM liner. The A1 CERTAINLY doesn't look IRON. But I could be wrong. I haven't run it through any metallurgy. BUT. Mahle does make a piston claiming to run fine in the FRM liners. There's a thread in here where a guy ran them for quite a few thousand miles. 10-20? (You search) There seemed to be some galling of the liners, but that could also be from incorrect clearance. Who's to say. I've also heard of people just coating the forged piston skirts and calling it safe.

Personally. I have a sleeved block. It's an extra $900. It's also Golden eagle. Through some Machine shops (That hopefully have a clue) it's around $500 for a typical re-sleeve. (Not an un-common fix for a typically aluminum block - Mercedes as an example ) Sounds pricey to some. Sounds like big power and added insurance to me. Either way, its whatever you're comfortable with.

 

just so you know, its "traitor" in this meaning.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onefastrx7turbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just so you know, its "traitor" in this meaning.</TD></TR></TABLE>Why? Im "trading" me b series in for an h series.??? LOL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sharkcohen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All H series motors use FRM.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Great Explanation buddy, Okay NOW i believe you.

 

That's funny,

But seriously,

I'm looking at it! It's FRM. H22 A1

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueLude94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great Explanation buddy, Okay NOW i believe you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What the **** do you want explained? All H motors use FRM. I'm sorry if that's not a good enough answer for you, I'm not sure how more clear I can be with that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueLude94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great Explanation buddy, Okay NOW i believe you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's nothing to be explained.

Fix your signature, your grammar sucks.

 

ahh....right on man...i misread it....cool

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The Phil &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

There's nothing to be explained.

Fix your signature, your grammar sucks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

HAHA, You guys are way tooo uptight, Chill out, first of all, all I wanted was a little help, I talk to the people at Wiseco, who have been in the piston industry for over 75 years and told me some thing that was differant then what a couple of people, i don't even know, said on the internet, Now i have a problem taking your word for it and i'm tired of every one on here who thinks their better than everybody else, All i'm asking is for you to see my side off this.

And as for personally insulting someone thats totally uncalled for. If their is a problem with my sig. you can PM me with a better way to phase it, and Thank You