I am building a daily driven b16 turbo car and I am trying to get an efficent but yet good for your everyday driving intercooler. I live in a very hummid area so I have been thinking of going with a vortech air/water intercooler. Just wanting some other opinions before I buy it.

 

Daily Driven should probably be air/air, at least IMO.

Do some talking to folks that have an air/water. I have been running air to air on my teg for 5 years or so, taken long trips, and used air conditioning without any issues.

I have driven pretty hard on the highway, in the heat, and as soon as I get off highway, I get out and feel both sides of the I/C (end tanks),.... and there is a HUGE temp difference, just by feel...You would be surprised at how efficient it is.

If you were going full race or weekends..., I wouldnt have even responded, but I think air/air is the way.

 

air/water is not a good idea for a daily driven car. it coolant for the intercooler gets heatsoaked after awhile. although it does have a cooling unit to mount to the front of the car, it doesnt really help much. just stick with air-to-air. less headaches

 

EDIT: I just noticed you said sleeper.
Oh by the way, if you want it to be a sleeper, get one that is anodized black, I am not sure if painting it will sacrifice any efficiency.

You can not really see them at a glance, until you come close.

BTW: Huge props for going sleeper.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurboIntegraGSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">EDIT: I just noticed you said sleeper.
Oh by the way, if you want it to be a sleeper, get one that is anodized black, I am not sure if painting it will sacrifice any efficiency.

You can not really see them at a glance, until you come close.

BTW: Huge props for going sleeper. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I saw a thread where someone try before and after painting the intercooler black (light coats of high temp BBQ grill paint) and the intake air temperature is EXACTLY the same before and after.

I believe it cause I tried it also.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elpiar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I saw a thread where someone try before and after painting the intercooler black (light coats of high temp BBQ grill paint) and the intake air temperature is EXACTLY the same before and after.

I believe it cause I tried it also.</TD></TR></TABLE>

anodizing uses acid... those tiny fins on the intercooler could go bye bye. ?

so paint would probably be the way to go.

 

A properly designed air to water intercooler will NOT heat soak as a daily driver, quite the opposite.

Just as your cooling system is designed to maintain your engines operating temperature so too can an air to water intercooler maintian ambiant temperatures, far superior to air to air intercoolers.

Size the intercooler for the amount of power you plan to run and build the cooling part of the system accordingly.

Pros to water:
Smaller intercooler required.
Much more efficient than air.
Cooler charge temperatures at no/low speeds.
Water provides a thermal mass to better absorb fluctuations.
Ice can be used for sub-ambient temperatures when wanted/needed.

Cons to water:
More complicated to install, water resevoir, pump and aux. radiator.
More expensive.

Here is an example: http://img139.imageshack.us/my...m.jpg

 

A water to air ic WILL heatsoak. How do you think the water is going to maintain ambient temp when it's abosrbing the heat from the air? You will have a heat exchanger for the water, but it's not going to be anywhere near 100% efficient, so you're left with water that's warmer than ambient air doing the cooling. With an air/air you have an unlimited supply of ambient cooling air. Although air isn't as efficient at transferring heat, the air you have to cool with is cooler than the water you have, all the time. There's a reason you don't see air/water ic on the street very often, it would take a very extravagant system to even be halfway efficient...

 

I agree the air/water will heaksoak but wont they both be affected the same?

 

Well, with an air/air, air is the cooling media, and you have an unlimited supply of it all at ambient temperature. With water/air, water is the cooling media and you have a limited supply of it which is being cooled by a "radiator", which is being cooled by air. So, you have the efficiency of the "radiator" being just as important as the efficiency of the intercooler. If your water doesn't get cooled back down to ambeint temps, which it won't, then say on a 100deg. day, the best you can hope for on the water is 120deg. or so. This doesn't take into account heat soak on the "radiator" for the water in the ic. It will take a pretty good sized heat exchanger to even be somewhat effective and that will get heat soaked by the heat from the engine. To make it simple, unless you are using ice in it and at the track only, a good air/air will be more efficient.

 

Just get an air/air intercooler but add on an intercooler mister. Real easy to do im in the process of doing it now. Just use your stock windsheild washer tank and pump and wire it up to a switch. Have misters for the intercooler that spray a water or windshield fluid (alcohol and water) onto the intercooler when needed. This will reduce intake temps when needed/wanted. Its cool and you know it works cause the new EVOS come with the same type system.

 

Increase the size of the heat exchanger or add a small auxillary fan if you are getting temps higher than ambient, it is that simple.

The limitless supply of air for an air to air charge cooler is the same air available to cool water... think about it.

The reason you do not see more a2w setups is due to the added complexity and cost and the myth that they heat soak.

 

So you're saying the heat exchanger will be 100% efficient?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wantboost &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">air/water is not a good idea for a daily driven car. it coolant for the intercooler gets heatsoaked after awhile. although it does have a cooling unit to mount to the front of the car, it doesnt really help much. just stick with air-to-air. less headaches</TD></TR></TABLE>

Initially, I thought the same thing but it's really not true. Although it's not a honda, I have a friend with a VR6 turbo GTI with an air/water setup (in the same spot that the stock vr6 airbox come in) and his intercooler is surprisingly cool to the touch even after hard runs on the highway and normal city traffic, without the use of ice water.

I thought that the intercooler and air temps would be so much hotter than mine, as I have a VR6 turbo with air/air FMIC, but we don't really see any difference between our setups and as far as heatsoak goes.

I could be wrong but I'd love to see the differences in air temps, on similar cars...one with air/air and one with air/water, under the same conditions. Would be very informative.

 

yeah man, air to air is the way to go on a daily driven car. i had a water to air on my buick, and over a long trip, trip the water heat soaked and caused a perfornmance issue. but it was a beast at the track, was a 3 tenths difference. 12.10 with out 11.81 with.

 

Tony,

No, not saying it is 100% efficient. Does not have to be.

The energy taken out of the charged air is transferred to water... that energy is then transferred back to the air... it is a cycle. If the amount of heat energy entering the system from the compressed air is more than the rest of the system can dissipate than you have a system where more energy is entering the system than is being taken out, you call the heat soak.

To correct or prevent this, you design a system that can remove the same amount of energy that is being put in. You can do this by increasing the volume of thermal mass absorbtion (water, water wetter, coolant etc.) or by increasing the amount of energy removed, i.e. the radiator or heat exchanger or fan. Or a combination.

I have a TEC-II on my car and can monitor (MAT) Manifold Air Temperatures. On a 90* day I consistently see MAT temps within a degree or two of ambient, whether on boost or idling in traffic. Same thing when it is 32* outside.

Of course there are limits to everthing. My current setup would heat up over time if I were road racing (constantly on boost). If that were the case I would increase the size fo the heat exchanger, as you would have to increase the size of an air to air intercooler. But for a road car that sees a little of everything (off boost and on boost) the systems works just fine.

 

Good stuff Alfa Turbo.

I have SDS on my VW and it also monitors air temps. With my FMIC on 80-90F days, my manifold air temps are usually 90-95F. If I'm in traffic, my manifold air temps usually top out at a whopping 134F.

 

How big is your heat exchanger? Only reason I ask is because i've worked with quite a few w/a setups on street cars and have yet to see one perform better than a good sized air/air. It would take a fairly large heat exchanger to make it happen.

 

with my water to air intercooler my IAT's were around 160 F on a 65-70 degree day and i had a nice pump and exchanger..i didnt like it, now im going with a 30x8x3 intercooler

 

i run an a/w setup...i cant compare it to a air/air because ive never tried...but my setup is as follows:

custom made a/w intercooler
jabsco water pump
1 gal fuel cell
cbr motorcycle radiator

around here i see intake temps of about 10-15 degrees above ambient....i drive the car quite a bit...but its not a daily driver....me and anohter friend have dont this for the sole purpose of being a sleeper....no big smiley face....is it 100% efficent...no...could i benefit from a fan on my heat exchanger...most definatly...

but then best is being able to throw a cooler in the back seat...fill it up w/ some ice and have all my lines going to that...makes the IAT's chilly...and perfect to go out and spank some cars running around w/ 100degrees intake temps...i cant get them around 60-70 on a nice hot day....its gggreat!

 

I had an air/water cooler on my old hatch, it was an 84mm GSR with an SC61. It was about double the size of the Vortech cooler, and I used a 12.5 gallon cooler in the back for the water source. For a heat exchanger I used a griffin half size rad with a fan. I liked using the coleman drink cooler for a water resevoir because A) Very easy to add ice compared to a fuel cell, B) it's inconspicuous, and C) it was great for throwing drinks into. I never installed a water temp probe, but with the chest about half full of water IAT's were good for me on the street. Maybe 10-15 over ambient at cruising and I could sit in traffic and the IAT's stayed fairly consistent, I don't ever remember then being more than 30-35 over sitting in stop and go traffic. I used a meziere 55 GPM pump (originally designed to replace a motor's water pump) for circulation.

B20luda: Elaborate on "a nice pump and exchanger"? If you look at something like an oil cooler that Vortech uses on their kits, it's designed to flow a thick/viscous fluid (an oil) and the water doesn't get enough time to dissapate all the heat it can, and they don't cool the H2O nearly as well as a rad.

 

drove around tongiht and compared the intake temps driving to ambient:

ambient was abut 70-72 degrees

Iat's cruizin around in and out of boost were about 90 degrees....

thats just w/ water

 

how much lower temps would coolant help instead of water?

i would think lower.

sounds like im gonna have to use a radiator instead of an oil cooler like originally planned on my build.
unless i get a couple high speed mini fans.


maybe you put a heat shield behind the radiator and put a high speed fan in between to cool it, anything helps


Modified by jdm602 at 4:33 PM 10/7/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jdm602 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much lower temps would coolant help instead of water?

i would think lower.

sounds like im gonna have to use a radiator instead of an oil cooler like originally planned on my build.
unless i get a couple high speed mini fans.


maybe you put a heat shield behind the radiator and put a high speed fan in between to cool it, anything helps


Modified by jdm602 at 4:33 PM 10/7/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

wow dug this one up from the past ehh...my last post was when i first had my car :-(

coolant wont help keep things cooler...all it will do is prevent corrosion..

ive found a blend of de-ionized water & water wetter work thee best as a cooling medium

and motorcycle radiators w/ a nice highflowing fan will keep you nice and cool