ok here's the latest problem thread from notoriousB. brake problems are still not resolved (see sig for link to that thread)

car will not start when cold.

checked for spark last night, NO SPARK when cranking. one short orange (weak) spark when you turn the key, then nothing.

I changed the following last night:
distributor (entire assembly)
disti cap
rotor
plug wires

no change. still no spark when cranking. but here's the weird part: if I get it to start via pop starting or very persistant cranking (bad bad don't do that I know) it will start and run. and run damned good!

Once the engine's up to temperature if I shut the car off it will start right up.

I find it hard to believe both distributors I have are bad, but I suppose that could be the case. I will be checking the coil and igniter this evening once I leave work.

Any thoughts for me in the meantime?

Thanks all... this car might just run and stop reliably by the end of this year...

 

While cold-cranking, how low does the voltage get at the distributor (black/yellow wire)? Dirt or corrosion at (for example) the battery post, provides a big resistance. Then while the starter is cranking, your ECU, injectors, coil, etc... sees real low voltage.

Hot-starting isn't so bad because the oil is warm & the starter draws WAY less current.

Measure voltage at (+) battery post while cranking.
Then at the big screw-in fuse in the fusebox.
If they're much different, keep going 'downstream' from the battery post until you find a point where it's low.

 

^^^^^ thanks Jim I will try that tomorrow for sure!! If I had a garage I'd be out there right now, that makes a ton of sense.

here's an update from testing earlier this evening:

ignition coil primary terminal resistance: both coils I have .5-.6 ohms
secondary resistance: installed coil 20.55 other 21.88

both are on the high side of the acceptable spec but pretty damned close, so I don't think it's the coil(s), especially since I'm just using a cheapo $20 multimeter.

did the ICM tests from the helms, but just realized I neglected to check the yellow/green wire for continuity to ground. all the other tests passed with flying colors. will test the yellow/green for grounding, kinda doubt that's it but will check tomorrow.

swapped the AEM EMS for the stock ECU, checked for spark, no spark. that rules out a tuning issue or problem with the computer.

 

I think if it were a bad coil or ignitor it would happen all the time, not just on cold cranking. Why should a bad coil suddenly become good when you pop-start it?

Gotta focus on WHAT'S DIFFERENT only during cranking.

Maybe a marginal coil would get real weak when the voltage is low. But still, it's not winter... system voltage isn't supposed to drop that much during cranking.

 

I had kind of the same problem. Check to see that the timing belt isn't out by a tooth one way or the other. My was out one tooth and had the timing so retarded that the car would do exaclty what your saying. Check it at the cam first.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Gotta focus on WHAT'S DIFFERENT only during cranking.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed. I have to really rule out the coil/ICM because I have two and they both do the same thing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbowa &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I had kind of the same problem. Check to see that the timing belt isn't out by a tooth one way or the other. My was out one tooth and had the timing so retarded that the car would do exaclty what your saying. Check it at the cam first.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I will definitely check that as well.

I did some investigation this morning, didn't have a helper so I couldn't crank the car over.

Re-did the transmission-battery ground to ensure a good contact. Re-did the battery-body ground also.

Checked and cleaned battery terminals.

Checked yellow/green from disti for continuity to ground. No continuity. (that's good)

Checked engine wiring harness connection at underhood fuse box - this may be an issue. On my "new" wiring harness, the screw-down connector to the fuse box was silver, while the one from the battery is gold.

I pulled that connector off and hit it off with some sandpaper, and what do you know, it's gold underneath. Looked at the wire connection to that connector and it's somewhat corroded looking (green/grey) - hit the end of the wire w/ the sandpaper and it's actually gold also.

Anyone know where that big fat wire goes after it goes into the wiring harness?

I have a spare harness that I will trace back later. I looked at that connector it's "silver" also, sandpaper made it gold again, the wires don't look nearly as bad on that harness as the currently installed one. Where could I get one of those connectors?? It's 8 awg I think... considering cutting the wires and splicing harness to harness but that's kinda ghetto. Won't do that until I get to do some voltage tests while cranking.

The brake problem is completely on hold until this starting problem is figured out. I can't handle all this at once, my mental state is so down I'm below the floor right now.

Jim, any good recommendations for good bicycle manufacturers? The truck is now smoking as well as ticking. Thinking major head gasket leak maybe. I'm not doing anything to it until the car runs. Hell I might just try to sell the truck as-is at this point. Someone might want it.

my life =

 

Does this car have a tack, does it move when trying to start with no spark, does it move when trying to start with spark (but has not started yet). Do you have an immobilizer system, have you tried another coded key if so. I have seen broken timing belts make one spark but we already know that your timing belt is good and hopefully in time so I would point to the crank sensors. Good luck.

Duane in Japan

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Re-did the transmission-battery ground to ensure a good contact. Re-did the battery-body ground also.

Checked and cleaned battery terminals.

Checked yellow/green from disti for continuity to ground. No continuity. (that's good)</TD></TR></TABLE>Good so far.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Checked engine wiring harness connection at underhood fuse box - this may be an issue. On my "new" wiring harness, the screw-down connector to the fuse box was silver, while the one from the battery is gold.

I pulled that connector off and hit it off with some sandpaper, and what do you know, it's gold underneath. Looked at the wire connection to that connector and it's somewhat corroded looking (green/grey) - hit the end of the wire w/ the sandpaper and it's actually gold also.</TD></TR></TABLE>Probably you're removing the plating & see the brass material underneath. As long as it's nice & shiny, making good contact, the color doesn't matter much. Maybe cover it with grease or something to prevent corrosion, especially where you've removed the plating.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone know where that big fat wire goes after it goes into the wiring harness?</TD></TR></TABLE>Do you mean the big (+) cable coming from the battery?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notoriousB &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jim, any good recommendations for good bicycle manufacturers?</TD></TR></TABLE>I haven't shopped for bikes in over 20 years, I still like my Trek... But there aren't many BAD bikes these days (compared to what I remember...) If you're serious, getting one that FITS properly is more important than almost anything else.

 

have to bump this one. having very similar problem, on two!!, 91 accord wagon's. one swapped, one not. going to the garage tonight to try to figure this stuff out. i will post latter tonight, with my findings. i might try pop starting my swapped car, just for the heck of it.

also, i am going to recheck my main relay solderings, but i was under the impression the main relay was more for the fuel control than spark, but not sure on that one.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Duane_in_Japan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does this car have a tack, does it move when trying to start with no spark, does it move when trying to start with spark (but has not started yet). Do you have an immobilizer system, have you tried another coded key if so. I have seen broken timing belts make one spark but we already know that your timing belt is good and hopefully in time so I would point to the crank sensors. Good luck.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
god I hope it's not the crank sensors. I do NOT want to pull this thing back apart that far. the sensors were good when the motor was originally pulled. I will check the wiring running to those sensors.

I'm starting to wonder about the integrity of the engine wiring harness I'm using.

I *thought* I had this resolved on Saturday. We messed w/ the car & disti & my buddy skabone has the same car so we swapped some parts around.

We finally checked voltage to the coil after messing around for a while. 10.4v!! during cranking about 9.4!

hooked his car up to mine w/ jumper cables & let the car charge for a while. again, this car sat for 6+ months without being started.

after some charging, VROOM! started!

long story short (my hands are tired) it started successfully for the rest of the day, even started after a 4 hour cool down. the next day it started, not 1st try, but 3rd try.

thought I had it beat and it was just a dead dead battery.

tried again yesterday: no start. tried over 12+ times and finally got it. that's not good enough tho.

did notice a strange thing when again checking coil voltage: coil voltage was 12.3v (not cranking). left the multimeter on for a while just watching and started hearing a humming from the coil. as it hummed the voltage dropped to 10.x volts. hummed for about 15 seconds, then &lt;SNAP&gt; (like a discharge sound) and the voltage shot back to 12.3v at the coil. WTF??

this morning I pulled the battery and threw it back on the charger in case that's truely the problem. almost makes some sense, as I do have an alarm that's constantly pulling voltage (tho a low voltage) all night all day... I may put the battery back in after work and see what happens.

can't drive the car too far to charge it, the ******* brakes still only work when they want to. off topic, but the brakes seem to function fine when driving around, but at idle they get mushy and drop to the floor. does that make any sense at all???

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JimBlake &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you mean the big (+) cable coming from the battery?</TD></TR></TABLE>
nope I meant the one on the other side - figured it out, it runs to the alternator. duh! for ***** & giggles (I always giggle when I ****. LOL) I checked the alternator output: 14.3v at the alternator and 14.3 at that terminal. perfect.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91wagonsir &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i might try pop starting my swapped car, just for the heck of it.

also, i am going to recheck my main relay solderings, but i was under the impression the main relay was more for the fuel control than spark, but not sure on that one.</TD></TR></TABLE>
just be sure you have a friend or a car to push it back to the garage if the pop start doesn't work!

main relay has nothing to do with the ignition, at least in my car (98).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91wagonsir &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... but i was under the impression the main relay was more for the fuel control than spark, but not sure on that one.</TD></TR></TABLE>Sorta indirectly...

The ECU provides the signal to the ignitor, telling it when to fire the coil. If the main relay is bad, the ECU isn't powered up, so it can't signal the ignition to fire. In that case there'd be NO spark. That wouldn't explain a weak spark.

 

the main relay provides power to the ecu? i did not know that.

 

It's 2 relays built together. One powers the ECU, injectors, O2 sensor heaters, & several solenoid valves. The other one powers the fuel pump. It's the fuel pump one that usually fails, so when THAT happens the ECU still has power. If the other side happens to fail, the ECU doesn't have power.