Attention - Jim Blake
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From: Ardmore, Pa, US
Attention - Jim Blake
Mr. Blake, can you help with the below problem: I posted this on New Year's Day and it went unanswered, obviously not a good time to post. Its just getting shuffled aside and buried under the new questions, so I am resubmitting it. I doubt most of the other newbies or even some of the regulars could help anyway, as I have already narrowed this turkey down (I hope). Looking over all the previous answers to my Honda questions, yours were right on target. Thanks for that help too.
Btw, one of the factors making this a bit harder for me is that the vehicle is parked on the street and for now needs to be worked on in that spot. so, jacking is problem somewhat, and the underbelly plastic shields are all in place, so I cannot even see where the fan motor connector is, i.e., where the fat blue motor wire disappears (looking from above and down at the fan motor).
See M/Y below --
The 20 amp cooling fan fuse in the engine compartment of my Honda keeps blowing. The cooling fan works. I can either leave the cooling fan come on by itself after engine shuts off, or I can jump the ECT switch (referring to the green colored connector, with the purple plug looking switch that stands up vertically - near the coolant air bleeding valve).
It goes like this. Fan comes on, runs a little bit, starts to slow down, tries to speed back up to normal and then pop the fuse goes. I switched the two identical part numbered relays in the engine compartment (the ones right behind the cooling fan fuse) but it still blows. I'm skeptical anyway that both relays are bad all of a sudden. One of those relays runs the power windows. So, I switched their positions and both of them powered the windows. So much for that theory.
Btw, I also pulled both relays for bench testing. I applied battery voltage as per Haynes Manual, chapter 3, page 3-5, sec 4.5c, but there is no continuity with voltage, as Haynes suggest there should be. Yet both relays will power the windows. So, I'm thinking Haynes has once again F_____! up cut and pasting another one of their typos ... Perhaps Haynes got the relay pic reversed and the A&C terminals should be B&D terminals?
I can tell you that I have worked around Volvo relays and Volvos have POS relays, and I know a lousy relay when I see one. These Honda relays look mighty sound and well made but who am I to say. I could cut them open with a Dremel - But if I do, do they have a circuit board that can be resoldered? However, why even bother, since they both power the windows?
The Haynes Manual says to check the Fan Control Module (FCM) and if the fuse(s) are good, then suspect the FCM. I checked the other cooling fan fuse in the drivers side footwell area and it is a good fuse, it's not blown. So, one fuse is blown and one is not blown, does that mean part of the FCM is good? ...
The only thing left to suspect is the fan motor itself, or a part of the motor, electrical connector, brushes, etc., or the wiring in the radiator cooling system somewhere? Anyone know what it might be or what I can check?
diyer
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
PS. 2nd Post additional info: When I got this vehicle, the front end had been hit and it pushed the rad fan into the plastic fan housing, and the fan was not able to rotate. I checked the fuse then and it was blown. I assumed (along with everyone tech I spoke to) that the fan fuse blew to protect the fan motor. I freed up the fan from the plastic housing and it was able to turn. I replaced the fuse and then fan worked on its own but not in the cold weather, only in the summer. So, I kept the fan switch (by the bleed valve) jumped, and the fan was always runnign when the engine was. When I turned th engine off I would leave it in the key on position, to leave the fan cool the engine for about 10-15 minutes. I haven't put any miles on the car, until I can get other things repaired (suspension and body work), so it just sits in front of my house. The engine runs good and there are no known problems with it. I did the usual complete fluid change and tune up stuff when I first got the car about 10 months ago.
I didn't mention any of this before because I did not want to make it easy for someone to jump to a wrong conclusion (I can see how that could have easily happened). There may be a possible connection between the current fan problem and the previous one? and maybe not too. Strange thing is, how it was fixed and the problem disappeared, and now there is the same problem, or is it? The car was never driven or used at all ... Can my shaking a loose fender/fender shroud cause a problem? ... Perhaps an animal made a nest in the fender and ate some wire?) But the car has just been sitting there like when I got it. Anyway, now this added info can be commented on separately "if" it tells you something key to the problem.
Modified by diyer at 11:55 AM 1/4/2005
Btw, one of the factors making this a bit harder for me is that the vehicle is parked on the street and for now needs to be worked on in that spot. so, jacking is problem somewhat, and the underbelly plastic shields are all in place, so I cannot even see where the fan motor connector is, i.e., where the fat blue motor wire disappears (looking from above and down at the fan motor).
See M/Y below --
The 20 amp cooling fan fuse in the engine compartment of my Honda keeps blowing. The cooling fan works. I can either leave the cooling fan come on by itself after engine shuts off, or I can jump the ECT switch (referring to the green colored connector, with the purple plug looking switch that stands up vertically - near the coolant air bleeding valve).
It goes like this. Fan comes on, runs a little bit, starts to slow down, tries to speed back up to normal and then pop the fuse goes. I switched the two identical part numbered relays in the engine compartment (the ones right behind the cooling fan fuse) but it still blows. I'm skeptical anyway that both relays are bad all of a sudden. One of those relays runs the power windows. So, I switched their positions and both of them powered the windows. So much for that theory.
Btw, I also pulled both relays for bench testing. I applied battery voltage as per Haynes Manual, chapter 3, page 3-5, sec 4.5c, but there is no continuity with voltage, as Haynes suggest there should be. Yet both relays will power the windows. So, I'm thinking Haynes has once again F_____! up cut and pasting another one of their typos ... Perhaps Haynes got the relay pic reversed and the A&C terminals should be B&D terminals?
I can tell you that I have worked around Volvo relays and Volvos have POS relays, and I know a lousy relay when I see one. These Honda relays look mighty sound and well made but who am I to say. I could cut them open with a Dremel - But if I do, do they have a circuit board that can be resoldered? However, why even bother, since they both power the windows?
The Haynes Manual says to check the Fan Control Module (FCM) and if the fuse(s) are good, then suspect the FCM. I checked the other cooling fan fuse in the drivers side footwell area and it is a good fuse, it's not blown. So, one fuse is blown and one is not blown, does that mean part of the FCM is good? ...
The only thing left to suspect is the fan motor itself, or a part of the motor, electrical connector, brushes, etc., or the wiring in the radiator cooling system somewhere? Anyone know what it might be or what I can check?
diyer
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
PS. 2nd Post additional info: When I got this vehicle, the front end had been hit and it pushed the rad fan into the plastic fan housing, and the fan was not able to rotate. I checked the fuse then and it was blown. I assumed (along with everyone tech I spoke to) that the fan fuse blew to protect the fan motor. I freed up the fan from the plastic housing and it was able to turn. I replaced the fuse and then fan worked on its own but not in the cold weather, only in the summer. So, I kept the fan switch (by the bleed valve) jumped, and the fan was always runnign when the engine was. When I turned th engine off I would leave it in the key on position, to leave the fan cool the engine for about 10-15 minutes. I haven't put any miles on the car, until I can get other things repaired (suspension and body work), so it just sits in front of my house. The engine runs good and there are no known problems with it. I did the usual complete fluid change and tune up stuff when I first got the car about 10 months ago.
I didn't mention any of this before because I did not want to make it easy for someone to jump to a wrong conclusion (I can see how that could have easily happened). There may be a possible connection between the current fan problem and the previous one? and maybe not too. Strange thing is, how it was fixed and the problem disappeared, and now there is the same problem, or is it? The car was never driven or used at all ... Can my shaking a loose fender/fender shroud cause a problem? ... Perhaps an animal made a nest in the fender and ate some wire?) But the car has just been sitting there like when I got it. Anyway, now this added info can be commented on separately "if" it tells you something key to the problem.
Modified by diyer at 11:55 AM 1/4/2005
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
From: NJ, US
Re: Attention - Jim Blake (diyer)
I sounds to me like you cooling fan motor is going bad. If you try to spin the fan by hand is it a little hard to turn? If so, thats your problem, and you should replace the cooling fan assy. If you try to replace just the cooling fan motor, they rarely go together and work properly. I work for honda and have seen this sort of problem before. Goodluck
Thread Starter
* B A N N E D *
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Ardmore, Pa, US
Haynes v. Helms info - cooling fan problem
See my M/Y/Gen below:
Haynes, at Chp 3, page 3-3, sec. 4, Pic/note # 4.1a, says [paraphrased] "to test either fan motor use a fused wire jumper on the connector" (pic shows connector to be directly in front of the cooling fan). Personally I do not see any electrical connector in front of the cooling fan but I will look again.
Haynes then says at pic/note # 4.1b [paraphrased] "the connector for the cooling fan is at the lower right corner of the cooling fan shroud."
Are there two connectors for the cooling fan motor or one? Or is it that one is for both fans and the other for just the cooling fan? I read things very carefully and that is what they said and it is causing confusion for me, not to mention the total absence of any connector in front of the cooling fan.
Well, after I get that answer here's the next question. Does the jumper have
to be fused? I have no jumper wires that are fused and having to make such a tool, although I am willing is going to be drudgery on top of frustration. Just trying to get the diagnosis done as quick as possible. So, if yes, then I have no idea how I am going to do that.
If not then, all I need to know is whether I should run both + and - from the battery, or just the + and then ground the - jumper wire on the engine. Its black/blue for + on the fan motor, and black for - right?
Haynes, at Chp 3, page 3-3, sec. 4, Pic/note # 4.1a, says [paraphrased] "to test either fan motor use a fused wire jumper on the connector" (pic shows connector to be directly in front of the cooling fan). Personally I do not see any electrical connector in front of the cooling fan but I will look again.
Haynes then says at pic/note # 4.1b [paraphrased] "the connector for the cooling fan is at the lower right corner of the cooling fan shroud."
Are there two connectors for the cooling fan motor or one? Or is it that one is for both fans and the other for just the cooling fan? I read things very carefully and that is what they said and it is causing confusion for me, not to mention the total absence of any connector in front of the cooling fan.
Well, after I get that answer here's the next question. Does the jumper have
to be fused? I have no jumper wires that are fused and having to make such a tool, although I am willing is going to be drudgery on top of frustration. Just trying to get the diagnosis done as quick as possible. So, if yes, then I have no idea how I am going to do that.
If not then, all I need to know is whether I should run both + and - from the battery, or just the + and then ground the - jumper wire on the engine. Its black/blue for + on the fan motor, and black for - right?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,132
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Re: Attention - Jim Blake (raceACCORDingly)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by raceACCORDingly »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IM him, he'll probably respond faster.</TD></TR></TABLE>... or wait for him to come back from vacation... 
I don't have a '94, so this is kinda vague.
My '98 has the wires from each fan motor leading upwards, & the plugs are on the fan shrouds, near the top. So that doesn't help you much if your wires run downwards. You're gonna have to dig around & find them. Maybe that's why they put em up higher on newer cars?
You say the fan switch has a green connector? That's suspicious. My Hondas have a green connector on the VTEC oil pressure switch, nearby. The connector for the fan switch is grey. I don't own a '94, but you should make sure you don't have those plugs interchanged...
Check the fan motor itself like others have suggested. Make sure it's not something silly like the blades hitting something. If it's just hard to turn, don't even bother checking it electrically. Putting a fuse in the jumper wire is good, but if you don't wanna do that, just be careful you don't set those wires on fire. I don't know wire colors/polarity, but if you get it backwards it'll probably just run backwards. You can run (+) from the battery & ground the (-) wire.
Run the motor until it slows down, pull those wires off & immediately check if the motor NOW is hard to spin. If it spins nicely, the motor has an electrical problem - trash it. If it never slows down, then your problem is in the wiring & a new motor wouldn't help.
I don't have a '94, so this is kinda vague.
My '98 has the wires from each fan motor leading upwards, & the plugs are on the fan shrouds, near the top. So that doesn't help you much if your wires run downwards. You're gonna have to dig around & find them. Maybe that's why they put em up higher on newer cars?
You say the fan switch has a green connector? That's suspicious. My Hondas have a green connector on the VTEC oil pressure switch, nearby. The connector for the fan switch is grey. I don't own a '94, but you should make sure you don't have those plugs interchanged...
Check the fan motor itself like others have suggested. Make sure it's not something silly like the blades hitting something. If it's just hard to turn, don't even bother checking it electrically. Putting a fuse in the jumper wire is good, but if you don't wanna do that, just be careful you don't set those wires on fire. I don't know wire colors/polarity, but if you get it backwards it'll probably just run backwards. You can run (+) from the battery & ground the (-) wire.
Run the motor until it slows down, pull those wires off & immediately check if the motor NOW is hard to spin. If it spins nicely, the motor has an electrical problem - trash it. If it never slows down, then your problem is in the wiring & a new motor wouldn't help.
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* B A N N E D *
Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Ardmore, Pa, US
Re: Attention - Jim Blake (JimBlake)
[QUOTE=JimBlake
"You say the fan switch has a green connector? That's suspicious. My Hondas have a green connector on the VTEC oil pressure switch, nearby. The connector for the fan switch is grey. I don't own a '94, but you should make sure you don't have those plugs interchanged ... "
Impossible - the electrical/removable connector is green-ish and the sensor bottom in the block is puruple-ish colored. Whenever I jump [the green part] it the cooling fan comes on. Also, and this is the ultimate proof: When I remove it [the purple sensor end in the block], there is the coolant right there for all to see.
"You say the fan switch has a green connector? That's suspicious. My Hondas have a green connector on the VTEC oil pressure switch, nearby. The connector for the fan switch is grey. I don't own a '94, but you should make sure you don't have those plugs interchanged ... "
Impossible - the electrical/removable connector is green-ish and the sensor bottom in the block is puruple-ish colored. Whenever I jump [the green part] it the cooling fan comes on. Also, and this is the ultimate proof: When I remove it [the purple sensor end in the block], there is the coolant right there for all to see.
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Re: Attention - Jim Blake (diyer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diyer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... Whenever I jump [the green part] it the cooling fan comes on...</TD></TR></TABLE>OK, I'll buy that.
Does '94 still have that fan-timer module with a 2nd temperature switch, to let the fan run after turning off the key? If so, I'm gonna cop out of this one; unless someone can post a wiring drawing...
Does '94 still have that fan-timer module with a 2nd temperature switch, to let the fan run after turning off the key? If so, I'm gonna cop out of this one; unless someone can post a wiring drawing...
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Michigan State University, USA
Re: Attention - Jim Blake (JimBlake)
im probably the least of an electrican as anyone on this board, but i can say taht yes, 94's cooling fans will run after the car is turned of, so i guess there is a 2nd temerature switch, and so forth
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Re: Attention - Jim Blake (fw190bvi)
Check out another thread...
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1079192
There's location of some stuff, & a wiring drawing. But remember that's for a '91 so I don't know how much to trust it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diyer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PS. 2nd Post additional info: When I got this vehicle, the front end had been hit and it pushed the rad fan into the plastic fan housing, and the fan was not able to rotate...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Front-end damage, huh? That might have cut into the insulation somewhere, buried where you can't see it. Or rodents eating insulation. Something like that can be a real PITA.
Sounds like I'm eager to spend your money, but you ought to get a Helm book for your year. There's a ton of detail in the electrical sections, it really puts your Haynes book to shame. It should show each harness connector in that system, so you can unplug each one & check individually for continuity to ground.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1079192
There's location of some stuff, & a wiring drawing. But remember that's for a '91 so I don't know how much to trust it.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diyer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PS. 2nd Post additional info: When I got this vehicle, the front end had been hit and it pushed the rad fan into the plastic fan housing, and the fan was not able to rotate...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Front-end damage, huh? That might have cut into the insulation somewhere, buried where you can't see it. Or rodents eating insulation. Something like that can be a real PITA.
Sounds like I'm eager to spend your money, but you ought to get a Helm book for your year. There's a ton of detail in the electrical sections, it really puts your Haynes book to shame. It should show each harness connector in that system, so you can unplug each one & check individually for continuity to ground.
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