<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">having a car that doesnt have some huge wing or ricey parts</TD></TR></TABLE>

OK CJ, I'm confused. What IT car has a "huge wing or ricey parts?"

And BTW...you can't just walk up to an official and make a change. It's not that easy. You're "making changes" to an entire nation of club racers

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha i think im just going to forget trying to tell people what i want to run.

just forget it.

we'll see when the time comes how the car does. ill have plenty of things to deal with before i even get the car on the track so im going to worry about those first.

thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>

Theres a difference between telling people what you want to run, and asking for their advice. I think most people think you are asking for advice, which they are giving to you, LOTS of it. You may like it or not, but its coming from people who have been racing for years. I guess the bottom line is to take everything with a grain of salt, it may not be what you want to hear but you may want to re-think taking the plunge into this game with the wrong car(at the moment).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2+2=6? and what i was talking about with form and function is not winning. but having a car that doesnt have some huge wing or ricey parts. not will it run upfront. Im talking on the lines of a clean car with cleanly installed parts and such.

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Why would you not want to have a front running car? I think most people build a car from scratch with the intention of running up front eventually when talent/development catches up with the car.

 

The amount of patience shown to JDMbuilt continues to amaze me. This crowd has run people out of here crying for less.

You can't have it both ways dude. Either you want to build a car with your head or your heart. These guys are trying to get you to think with you head. You insist on thinking with you heart (the one that looks better to you).

Oh... and good luck with the little talk with the official at the racetrack about 100lbs.

 

Kid, maybe drifting is more up your alley.

At least then you can make the car look fast without actually having to worry about it being fast, or competitive, or 100 lbs overweight, etc.

I'm saying this in all seriousness. It is becoming painfully obvious that road racing isn't for you, and this surprises me because I figured that you spending the weekend at Road America with members of this forum would be a reality check. I guess not.

 

anyone notice he listed 16 as his age? i dunno if thats really true, but he's acting like it... so i suggest not trying to be too serious with him.

 

No, He's 16 and I think he's serious about racing.

He was at Road Atlanta last weekend, but it looks like he didn't really grasp what he was looking at or what he's been told.
Maybe its that he's 16. Actually, it probably is that he's 16.

Let me summarize for you CJ...

1. You don't change the rules by just talking to an official. Someone has a reason for putting that 100lbs in that car and its likely not going to change. Period. This is how it works, like it or not.
2. In 2 otherwise totally equal cars, that 100lbs will make a difference. Maybe just a few feet here and there in a braking zone, but over 20 laps those few feet per lap add up. So the lighter car is the better car.
3. Its a bitch to try to sell a race car if you run out of money and need to get out of the sport. Its an even bigger bitch if its a car that is overweight and unproven.
4. "Clean lines" are great, but we're talking about race cars. And in race cars you want the best motor, tranny, weight, brakes and suspension combination. Clean lines mean exactly jack **** to the folks at the race track. At the NOPI Nationals... Yeah. Get j00 some clean lines.

I'm done with you until you show some semblance of listening to what experienced people are telling you. Again, we don't know everything, but we know a shitpot more than you do.
Your enthusiasm is great, but you really are completely fuggin' clueless and you're not going to get a clue until you shut up and start listening.

"Talk to an official"
Yeah. Thats pretty damned funny right there.

 

FYI.

The 94-95 Civic EX is listed at 2305 (the same weight as when it was in ITS) and the 96-98 Civic EX is listed at 2450. So it's actually 145lbs!

The 96-98 EX started in ITA with that weight. The 96-98 has a comp ratio of 9.6 and the 94-95 is 9.2. The 94-95 can also run the rear disc setup... Bore/Stroke, valves and Trans rations are equal. the 94-95 is listed with 15" wheels, but I'm working to get that corrected.

 

so with a IT-trim static CR of 10.1:1 compared to 9.7:1 in the 94-95, the 96-98 maybe deserves the extra weight?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
OK CJ, I'm confused. What IT car has a "huge wing or ricey parts?"
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mine does..


this thread is amusing.. i love seeing younger guys(or girls) getting into this sport because I wish I had known about it at their age.. but you've gotta listen sometimes, and there's a lot of experience talking here..

besides, I've owned a bunch of civics.. I've never really thought that the 94-95, 96-98, and 99-00 looked THAT different..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mstewar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">besides, I've owned a bunch of civics.. I've never really thought that the 94-95, 96-98, and 99-00 looked THAT different..</TD></TR></TABLE>

The Altezza tail light look better on the later cars...

 

I was making a comment about having a car i think is clean. and i know about talking to officials. im just talking here but it seems that if i make a comment when im meaning something people jump all over it like a pack of wolves correcting everything down to the T.


im simply saying here.

 

right, but that's not going to help you get that 145lbs of additional weight taken out either, now is it? yeah, it might suck, but thems the breaks I guess..

 

Ok scott

if you think i have my head shoved up my *** then you are more than welcome to think that. Im not clueless i just like to build what i like. and im doing this for fun. i dont honestly care if i blow tons of money on this. i plan to do that anyway. I would rather be happy and race then spend it on drugs and get screwed up that way. I love the racing family, i like the getting up early and the anxious about a run. So I AM serious about road racing and am working on getting everything set up as we speak.

ive have taken everything you have said into account. now if you plan to give me more information, tell me something you havent already. I know i have to talk to more than just an official. when i was talking about talking to an official i ment going to someone who does write the rulebook and ask why, maybe even protest it. ive done it in carts in baja and on bikes so ill do it again.

maybe THAT will clear something up

another note:

I Feel that this car will also have a better chance at getting sponsorship being that it is newer and companies like going after the newer cars. Yes, i know what your thinking companies like cars that win, but more companies like consistency that a win here and there.

my pick for this my not be rational , but in racing what is? and if im spending my own money on this and spending the exorbent amount on something. shouldn't i enjoy it?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok scott

if you think i have my head shoved up my *** then you are more than welcome to think that. Im not clueless i just like to build what i like. and im doing this for fun. i dont honestly care if i blow tons of money on this. i plan to do that anyway. I would rather be happy and race then spend it on drugs and get screwed up that way. I love the racing family, i like the getting up early and the anxious about a run. So I AM serious about road racing and am working on getting everything set up as we speak.

ive have taken everything you have said into account. now if you plan to give me more information, tell me something you havent already. I know i have to talk to more than just an official. when i was talking about talking to an official i ment going to someone who does write the rulebook and ask why, maybe even protest it. ive done it in carts in baja and on bikes so ill do it again.

maybe THAT will clear something up

another note:

I Feel that this car will also have a better chance at getting sponsorship being that it is newer and companies like going after the newer cars. Yes, i know what your thinking companies like cars that win, but more companies like consistency that a win here and there.

my pick for this my not be rational , but in racing what is? and if im spending my own money on this and spending the exorbent amount on something. shouldn't i enjoy it?


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What planet do you live on????

You are clueless, this cannot be denied.

"i dont honestly care if i blow tons of money on this" ???

It is only blowing it if you do all the wrong things, which you are on the path to doing. It isn't like your only two choices are "build 99-00 Civic or buy an eight ball", you can do it the right way or you can choose to completely **** things up.

"maybe even protest it." HA! You have no ground to stand on. There are so many things you wouldn't be able to prove that would be required that it would make your head spin. Besides, my guess is the car could weigh 1800 lbs and you'd still be slow, since you don't listen.

You are getting way ahead of yourself with the sponsorship too. You don't realize how little sponsorship there is in this sport, even in the "professional" levels such as ALMS and World Challenge. It is almost all funded out of pocket, no t00ner companies are going to see you in your car wanking around in the back of the back and think "ooh ooh lets sponsor him, his car is clean y0!!1!!"1"

Yes you are supposed to enjoy it, but you wont get much enjoyment by piling all these headaches on yourself with nothing to show for it. Might as well take $20,000 and burn it. You have every right to do what you want with your money, just don't expect anyone to help you if you are going to have this attitude.

Is this about a girl you are trying to impress? Because there are much easier and cheaper ways to get girls than to act like hotshot wannabe racer who doesn't have to listen to anyone.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O’Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Might as well take $20,000 and burn it. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Don't waste it like that...give it to me...I have wanted to have a racing budget for a long time now...

 

Couple of points here:

1. People here are correcting you because YOU ARE WRONG. To state that you want form and function, yet want to run a heavier, slower car, just doesn't make any sense.

2. The best way to advertise your business, is to run a competetive car. More people are going to pay attention to a front running car that you may not think looks good, rather than your slower car, running in the back of the field, that looks "cool". It just doesn't work that way. Can you name who Ferrari F1's major sponsors are (w/o looking it up)? I'll bet quite a few people here can. Can you name any of Minardi's major sponsors? You'd be hard pressed to find very many people who know that off the top of their heads.

3. If you are really serious about racing, the first thing you need to accept, is that you don't know everything. Hell, most of the guys here will admit that they don't know everything. I had instructors at licensing school last weekend that have forgotten more than I'll ever know. Time and time again, people here have given you an A+ for enthusiasm, and an F for attitude. Do you get it? Think about it a little bit. Now do you get it?

I'm probably rehashing what many others are saying here, but come on, dude. We would love to see you succeed, especially starting out at an age that we all wish we had started. Hell, I'm 30, and I'm just getting into this. I can only imagine where I'd be if I had gotten into this half my life ago. But you can't come onto this board and ask questions, then get upset with the answers or advice people give you. If you don't want to hear it, don't post. Or start a new message board with Ghettoracer, where you can ask each other questions, then get all over each others **** about the answers all day long.

Bring your 145lbs. of extra weight out west, and I'll take it on with my 95 ITA EX lighter Coupe, and we'll see what happens, but I guarantee you, I'll pull you on the straights and brake later, every time. Who's got the advantage?

Good luck getting the rules changed on the weight. It's practically taken an act of God to get some of the cars reclassified, not to mention the performance adjustements clause put in the rules. I guarantee you, because I went over it with Kirk while trying to get the 92-95 coupe moved to ITA, just because you can't win a race doesn't mean that they'll grant you a weight allowance. They'll want to see you spend at least a year, driving the car at the spec weight, and come up with a solid reasoning behind why the car's weight is incorrectly listed. The burden of proof is on you to prove that they are wrong, and not just because you can't win any races. They'll want you to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it's the car not winning races, and not the driver. And to be honest, getting a weight adjustment, or class adjustment is proving that the car is just flat out, not competetive where it's at. How do you do that? I have no idea.

On top of the fact that, ITCS section 17.1.4 B states that "Entrants shall not be guaranteed the competetiveness of any car, and competition adjustments, other than reclassification, are not allowed." So, unless you plan on trying to get the car reclassified (which is the only time they'll make an adjustment to the weight), don't bother.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I Feel that this car will also have a better chance at getting sponsorship being that it is newer and companies like going after the newer cars. Yes, i know what your thinking companies like cars that win, but more companies like consistency that a win here and there. ...?</TD></TR></TABLE>

For what it's worth, this is precisely why the car is listed in the ITCS in the first place. When I was looking for options, one criterion was that I wanted something that was only one body generation old - for exactly the reason stated so well above.

I could more easily have turned up a reasonable '93 EX and gone racing but it would be just one generation closer to becoming a vintage car. It keeps coming down to me being a slow-*** old fart but 20+ years in SCCA has left an impression on me and there is value in not racing what people on the street perceive to be an "old car." Instead, I wrote to proposal, the CRB went for it, and the thing got listed.

Would it be a better option without the extra weight? Yes.

Is it likely to make as big a difference in the real world as driver skill, tire budget, or half a dozen other variables? No.

If the kid gets a little more attention and gets the local tire place to mount his shoes for free, is there a net increase in competitiveness? Perhaps.

Does this kid have a lot to learn? Heck, yeah.

Have you all forgotten what it's like to be 16? I think maybe. ..

Personally, I think our young friend has presented a pretty good image here, all things considered. We've all had our stupid-stubborn moments in this game - some continue to have them at twice his age or more - so maybe we should cut some slack here.

K

 

Knestis thank you! you have finally seen the image im trying to present. Im not planning all of this for tommorrow or this year but years down the road. im trying to learn but i want to learn from people with open minds and know that not all people will go the same route they did. There is always another way to get to the same spot. some harder and some easier. so be it if i pick the hard way. it will be a learning experience so in lets say 5 years ill be walking all over half the people on here if i learn what i need.

but like i said thank you Knestis! you rock man.

 

Yeah, well don't thank me too quickly. You might not want me on your side. More than a few people think I'm just an opinionated, cranky, old *** who drives his half-baked, not-quite-racing car to the track. Dadgummit.

K

 

Kirk, that sounds great, but we both know that knowing what you are talking about and being competitive gets you much farther in IT than having a cool, newer car in position 15 on the grid.
Thats life at this level of racing. 95% of Sponsorship help comes from race tire dealers, race prep shops, and fabricators. It doesn't come from the bling bling wheel shop that sells dubs and stereo equipment. It doesn't come from North American Honda (unless you work there). It doesn't come from the local Honda dealership. Their target audience doesn't see the car, ever.

What race tire dealers and prep shops want is a front running car. They want to see it dominating the field because their target audience is the folks THE CAR JUST BEAT. These folks say "****, that car with the "xxxx" decals just whipped my ***. I need to go over there and buy some of their stuff."

My car is 14 years old and has a crooked front bumper. It also has more sponsorship support than 90% of the IT cars in North America. Why??? Because its always at the pointy end of its class.
Its certainly not because its new and has clean lines y0.

We agree 90% of the time Kirk, but here my opinion is that you are misguided. Having a newer car in IT won't help you AT ALL unless you are winning in it, and being 145lbs heavier than a nearly identical car in the same class isn't a good start.

Again, CJ gets an A for enthusiasm, but in this thread and others he continually asks questions and then balks when the answers aren't what he wants to hear. This isn't so much about this one 145lb issue as much as it is a continuation of a trend.
If he wants to do what he wants to do... Fine. Go for it.
But stop asking for advice here and then ignoring it. That WILL NOT get you support from people you might really need to help you out later.
And certainly don't post that you prefer function over form and then come back a few posts later and justify the chassis you want to run by saying that you prefer its looks. Thats moronic, and we certainly don't need any more morons in club racing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, well don't thank me too quickly. You might not want me on your side. More than a few people think I'm just an opinionated, cranky, old *** who drives his half-baked, not-quite-racing car to the track. Dadgummit.

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

At least you have an expensive, custom cage that is too heavy and no longer fits very well.

Yeah CJ, take advice from THAT guy.
He's got this racing thingy by the *****.

 

Kirk is absolutely right.

I think the problem that keeps erupting, and what aggravated me enough to chime in, is that time and time again, you ask questions, then argue with people over their opinions.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> There is always another way to get to the same spot. some harder and some easier. so be it if i pick the hard way. it will be a learning experience so in lets say 5 years ill be walking all over half the people on here if i learn what i need.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So be it, then. I think that perhaps you could pick the easier way, and be there in half the time, but so be it. That's just my opinion. With all sincerity, I hope you succeed, honestly. Don't stop asking questions, just stop arguing about the responses you get. Build the car you want to, because you want to, but don't expect to get all the rules changed to your liking, and accept that fact that people will have contrary opinions. And if you clean house, we'll all eat our shoes.

Good Luck!

 

Scott, I do appreciate the advice and you being a front running car is a top spot on my list of who i respect as a driver and builder but when ive told everyone on here that if i want to go with what i want and i plan to run that your advice ON THAT SPECIFIC subject is in no way helping me or advice to me by anymeans. I appreciate that you are bringing this to my attention that it's a tad on the heavy side but if that's ALL the advice your going to give me that really isnt any help.

now if you start given me advice on what parts not to screw with how might i want to set up the car with different spring rates, bla bla bla. I garuntee you ill listen to that. but ill also telling you your preference over mine i wont. ya im 16 so be it. but age has nothing to do with what car i would like to run. Ya I probably am racing and building from my heart. it's called a Passion. But I have talked too a person i highly respect and was in the same shoes I am and has told me where i need to be.

so i thank all of you for your help.

once again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I Feel that this car will also have a better chance at getting sponsorship being that it is newer and companies like going after the newer cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

One of the better "sponsored" amateur cars I know of is Scott's ITC Civic. Old and slow (relative to other classes). But IIRC he managed to get a solid chunk of his build costs covered by various shops by presenting a solid track record and a solid plan for what the car will do. (I could be misremembering what he told me, maybe it was just a few deals with a few shops)

"Sponsored" is in quotes because I can't think of a single IT or similar car that has real corporate sponsorship. There are a handful of cars run by the race shops (OPM, Bimmerworld, etc), but they tend to be driven by the shop owners or ringers. And a slightly larger handful of cars that have some sort of tire or consumables coverage from indy vendors. Again, nothing that pays the bills - they're lucky to get enough to cover entry fees and tire wear.

 

But CJ, you must understand that you have given neither me nor anyone else here incentive to help you out. Every time you ask for advice you dismiss the answer if you don't like it. Thats a good way to get people to decide answering you is a waste of their time.

I tell you the lighter car is the better choice and you tell me you want to run the heavier one because you like it more. OK, fine. But realize that I'm giving you "real" reasons for which car to choose and you're giving me personal asthetics.

So what have you done to show me that when you ask me...
-About shocks and I tell you Koni that you won't prefer Tein because its JDM y0.
-About springs and I tell you Eibach that you won't decide that you want H&R because they are a prettier color.
-About headers and when I tell you "puckett" you decide that you want DC polished stainless because it looks better.

See what I'm saying?
I don't have time or patience for that.
If you want to discuss valid reasons why X chassis or X header is better... GREAT!!!
But I really don't give a **** about what you think is prettier or has cleaner lines or what you are "passionate" about. Save that conversation for the boyz in the Sonic parking lot with their xenon bulbs and billet oil filler caps.