xMetal

As an offshoot of a topic in another forum, I am starting to think about which class I'd like to go to next season in Solo II. I am running GS now, and doing well, but I'd like to make some modifications to the car, which will obviously bump me out of GS (or DS next year).

Now I was initially thinking of CSP, but several people thought that I might have better luck in SM. My car is not going to be super tuned for AutoX only, but just mildly modded. I already have race tires and a catback exhaust, and by next season I'll probably have an intake, suspension, and strut tower bars. These mods will let me be in either CSP or SM (in SM I could also take out my rear seats).

At the local level in CSP, there are 2-3 highly prepared CRX's that basically kick ***. I'm still a pretty new driver and have lots more room for improvement, but those guys have me by at 2 seconds at most events. In SM, there are a couple DSM's and a Supra. I actually have a better chance of winning in SM (those fellas had me by a second at the last event). I would have placed 3rd in both of those classes at our last event.

I'm just not sure which way to go. At the divisional and national levels, there are going to be some crazy *** cars in either class. While I am not really aspiring to be a national champion in my R, it would be nice to not get totally utterly destroyed if I decide to participate someday. I think this is going to come down to choosing the lesser of two evils.

Any more thoughts?

madhatter

The ITR is really great at GS, but is potentially out of it's depth in either of those other 2. (just wait until someone builds a class killer SM Supra) The Miata or CRX is the car to have in CSP, so until you are quick enough to compete in either class, you should probably stay put.

xMetal

Yeah, I realize that. It's kind of annoying because except for the stock class, the R has no real place to go. I'll improve as a driver, but how can you compete against an equally good or better driver in a 1600lb CRX or a 400hp Supra?

But I want to have some fun with the mechanical twiddly bits and am sick of not being able to do anything, so that will force a move.

And someone did build a killer SM Supra (nat. champ Kent Rafferty). Luckily he's not in my region.

slowSER

You'd probably be more competitive in Street Mod. At least for now. Until somebody starts kicking *** with a Civic or M3 hybrid.

The fastest Street Mod cars (The Rafferty's Supra, Aaron Miller's Neon, etc.) aren't quite as fast as the fastest CSP CRX's.


[Modified by slowSER, 4:47 PM 8/16/2001]

madhatter

M3 hybrid (M5 Engine) is already unleashed on the Atlanta region. Once that guy gets out of the novice class, it's all over for SM....

slowSER

Todd00

It's kind of annoying because except for the stock class, the R has no real place to go.

Welcome to my hell This is why I am trying to get every ITR driver out there to push for the R to go to DSP. Check out this thread that I posted a while back:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=43335

xMetal

In regards to the CSP/DSP thing, what I can't figure out is:

In GS, we have the ITR, the GSR, and the Impreza 2.5RS.

Mod those cars, and the GSR and 2.5RS go to DSP. The ITR goes to CSP. Huh? This means that the ITR is misclassed in one or the other...

So, maybe SM is looking better (unless you go to nationals...)

MaddMatt

There's already a form of M3 hybrid in Viginia. Terry Baker showed up to our July event at VMP with an 88 M3 with a heavily massaged 328 engine. Of course, he was still 2+ seconds behind Tim Aro in a stock MRSpyder.

fsp31

I guess they wouldn't know what to do with the GSR if the ITR went to DSP. But it seems to me like the two cars would be evenly matched if built to the extent of SP rules. BTW, that's supposedly the basis used for classing cars in the first place right?

A potential road block for the Type R in DSP, CSP, or SM is something that makes it a great GS car, and that's the disc brakes. From what I understand, ain't no way a 13" wheel is gonna fit over them. Classed in DSP, I suppose you could "backdate" to GSR brakes if they were classed on the same line. In SM you could do a swap to smaller discs and calipers but that's like a gut punch to any car enthusiast.

IMO, the SM class killer will be a well built 3 or 4G Civic hatch that weighs 1800lbs, has lots of horsepower and big ole contact patches. One only needs to look as far as EP to see the awesome potential. It would be interesting to back out a few mods on the Lombardo Civic to make it SM legal. I'll bet you could get it pretty close for the 190 lb penalty it needs to make weight. Somebody get JT to take a 200lb passenger with him sometime... volunteers? ;-)

xMetal

Well, the 15's barely fit (there's about 2mm of clearance). And why would you want 13's ayways? I was going to get some chromed Dubs and put on some Nittos with red TireTint on 'em.

And it sounds to me like your "class killer" is the same thing that kicks booty in CSP. Is there no escaping the civic-hatch-curse?

00R101

The bottom line is in either SM or CSP you will not be winning on a National level if your car is only "mildly modded" In any SP class or SM only the cars prepared to the limits of the rules will win.

That doesn't mean that you can't have fun and mod your car just don't expect to have the same kind of dominance that you currently enjoy in GS.

There are lots of good drivers in uncompetitive cars. They still have fun auto-xing. They are not willing to sacrifice a fun daily driver to win. Or they are not willing to pour all the money needed to fully prep a car to its limits. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH NOT HAVING THE FASTEST CAR IN CLASS!! This is just an amatuer hobby motorsport. Don't forget that.

Regards,
Alan

Todd00

Don't feel bad for the GSR because it will become competitive in GS next year when most of the fast cars make the jump to DS, and the GSR still has STS to conquer (which I think it can).

As soon as SM gets some rules and becomes official, you'll start to see some cars being built for it. My 93 DX Hatch is just itching to try the class

And I still say GSR = ITR performance in SP trim. There will be no noticble difference. CSP should have a max weight limit of 2300 lbs anyway (IMO) since some of those HF CRX's can get down into the 1600lb range. Those things put down about 100hp at the wheels too.

fsp31

>>And why would you want 13's ayways? I was going to get some chromed Dubs and put on some Nittos with red TireTint on 'em.<<

Yeah yeah. Well they may look goofy, but they're fast... I mean, hell I drive an accursed Civic. It looked like a Reebok to begin with, but now it looks like a rollerskate.

Brett@SoloRacer.com

So you can be like mike http://www.tegsportracing.com/mikeneary.html

eight-six

come on, I got stock 15's and can pull wheels like that with Kumhos

lundgren

xMetal,

I drive an Integra in SM, and let me say there are not many of them, I think I can comment on this, since I autocross a LOT, and I'm the only INtegra registered for SM for Nationals in Topeka this year.

- The Type R is THE GS (DS Next year) car to have.
- You won't be any faster with intake, strut bars at all.
- Suspension will only get you about a 1 second at MOST, if even that on a 60 second course.

To be fast in SM, you need a turbo or supercharger for a honda, or you need to do a motor transplant into an early model civic 4 door. Your Integra is TOO heavy for much, and there are NO mods that you can do, cheap. To prep your Type R for SM, you would need to put in around 2k for suspesion, and another 5k for a turbo or SC.

If you want a nice street car, and auto-x now and then, do whatever, and come into SM. If you want to win races, stay in GS (DS). Get a set of 225's 45's for the front, and 205 50's for the back. Attend 2-3 Evolution Autox schools, and get some seat time.

If I had to do it over, I would have had a Type R, and stayed in GS. The GS-R is a good STS car, but not a good GS car. It's ok for DSP, but even in SM, it's tough.

xMetal

lundgren, thanks for the comments. I fully realize that a few more minor mods like I'm planning will have a negligable effect on overall speed. Suspension will have the greatest impact, and like you said I might get a second out of that.

I am looking at the times for all the SM cars in my local area, and it seems I'm not far off right now, and this is my rookie season. I imagine that by next year I'll have a good shot at catching most any of those guys. I'm really doing this for fun and to get some more driving skill, and if I win a lot that's even better.

I realize that at the national level, it would almost certainly be suicide to run an almost stock integra in SM. But, at this point in my driving "career", I'd expect to get slaughtered in any class.

My main conern was that if I switch classes, then suddenly I'd be totally out of my league and continually banished to the bottom of the ranks. While it's all for fun and experience, it's not very enjoyable to be last everytime. Looking at my local competition though (which would make up 99% of my racing) I might have a shot.

I'm still not sure what to do. Save the money, keep it stock and win in DS, or spend the money to have fun with gadgets and shiney parts and have a tough time eeking out a 3rd. Put that way the choice seems clear...

grippgoat

You've really got to ask yourself what's more important: day to day enjoyment of the car, or autocross.

I've been struggling with questions about what I should and shouldn't do to my NSX, whether I should stay in ASP or not, etc.... Then one day I realized, "Wait a minute. I don't actually give a **** about autocross results. I'll just do whatever I feel like, and run it in whatever class I can." I haven't autocrossed in at least a month now. My drive to and from work every day is plenty fun. And I can do whatever I want to my car without worrying about rules.

And lundgren... if you had to do it all over again, are you *sure* you wouldn't have a hybrid civic hatchback? I know I would....

-Mike

lundgren

If I did it over, I would have learned in GS in a Type R, then moved to something else, and saved THOUSANDS of dollars.

I think a civic hatch back would be fun, but honestly, I think other cars make better SM cars.

I *might* look into a Lancer Evo when they come to the US next year, for an SM car.

lundgren

Let me also add, running a GS-R in SM is a lot of fun, trying to move up in the pack, despite all odds.

hondachick81

so you can do a three wheel in your integra!!!

Hracer

This is a good topic. I guess it matters most if you are a hard core autoxer and care about championship points, etc. or if you just like playing with your car and enjoying it on the street/track for the fun of it and not for winning. Personally, I like it more to slowly build up my car while at the same time having fun autocrossing it and running it on the track. That's what I'm slowly doing with my car (talon awd).

Right now I'm autocrossing a Type R in GS. I believe it is the fastest car you can have in GS. It is a killer even without running hoosiers, ultra expensive shocks and radical alignments that the national guys are running. If you say you are running close to SM times, then go for SM. Regionally it is very possible to win it. Here in Atlanta, the top GS guys are running faster times then all the 10+ SM cars that show up. However, we have here a past national CSP champion driving a fully developed CRX, so if I were to choose between CSP or SM here, the choice is clear.

I would suggest you have fun modding and running your car in a non-stock class, since it’s clear by your posts that this is what you want to do.

lundgren

xMetal (paul):

I looked at your region results, and let me say up front, before you decide to goto SM, go attend a national tour, or a divisional event.

Take a look at http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/na...u/results.html

If you find Marc Porschke, you'll see he ran a 121.237 total. The top SM cars were in the teens, and Trey Commander an SM Type R had a 119.618.

At one of your locat events, Marc at http://www.neohio-scca.org/solo/resu...05_results.htm ran a 30.951, and you had a 31.342. Now it's hard to compare exactly, not knowing about the rain, but it looked like the event noted stuff like that so I'm pretty sure you both had clean runs.

Given that, you were 1.2% slower, which had you and he ran the same at the divisional noted above, your time could have been close to 122.768.

Now I double check this againsted another one too, just to make see if I was off and took the average.

Ernie Rogge at http://www.neohio-scca.org/solo/resu...05_results.htm had a 31.098, you had a 31.342. Using the same math, with Ernie at the same national tour at 118.831, gives you a 119.763. Take the two times and you're around 120.

With a time of 120, had you run at the national tour, using the above, you would have been in mid pack GS times. But bottom of the pack SM.

The point is, you're local SM drivers are slow. So I agree wtih the points made above, SM is fun, but attend a national tour or divionsal before you commit to it.

xMetal

lundgren,

wow, thanks for all the math skills! Those results are interesting. Like I said before, I am still learning, and I know that I will get faster with more experience. I think I am going to take your advice and go to the CENDIV event in Toledo in 2 weeks to see how I do. Now I'm not fooling anyone (especially myself). I know I have a LONG way to go to get to national level caliber. Years.

But I've been thinking about this more, and I think I might be switching gears from my original plan. I really love autox. A lot. And even though it's all for fun, I do like to be able to compare myself with other drivers to guage my skill level. The problem is, that if I switch to a highly modified class, the car (and the subsequent amount of money you pour into it) will have more and more of a effect on results. I don't have $10,000 to put into my ITR. So, I think that I'm going to stay stock for next season. I'll build my skill level on a more even field, and have a better chance of coming out ahead. I can use all that money I would have spent on suspension, etc to get another set of wheels so that I don't have to beat up my racing tires. In the end I think this will be more fun, since there will be so much less to worry about. Just pump up them tires, make sure everything's out of the trunk and go race. No tuning, tweaking and endless modding.

Oh, just FYI, the event that you were using for your extrapolations was the same for everyone weather wise.

Thanks for all the great comments folks!