What are the physics behind the cars handling while the car is in neutral... On the streets, I sometimes drop in neutral and corner a little hard, no where near the threshold of the tires though cause I'm skerd...

So lets say you have this 90 degree turn you take at 60mph in 2nd gear w/ partial throttle through the apex. What would happen if you took the same turn at the same speed but before the turn you drop to nuetral so your not pulling through the corner. Does the car pitch slideways? Will the rear slide out?

 

weight transfer is the key here i think.

if you're in nuetral, the car is decelerating even if you're not on the brakes. between the friction of the motor, transmission, tires, and everything else, the car is actually slowing quicker than you might think........especially if you're scrubbing speed by cornering hard.

what happens when you decelerate? weight transfers forward. the front tires have more grip, the rears have less. if you are using all your available grip for the rear tires before you lift of the throttle, then lift, the rear will start to slide.

i guess, unless you're doing something really st00pid, if the car doesn't do something funny right after you lift off the throttle/brake, you can coast through the corner, though it's not the fastest way around........which brings me to ask the question...........what is the point of this question?

 

what he said.. but you also run the risk if you're cornering hard.. if you slap it in neutral, corner hard, and your tail starts sliding out.. you lose one of your abilities to regain control which is some throttle..

 

In almost all driving situations you either want to be on the throttle (from partial throttle to full throttle) or on the brakes.

At times, I may enter the turn with very little throttle, but my car is still in gear and my foot is definitely on the throttle, even if partially.

Interesting thought, but, it can be dangerous cornering hard in neutral.

 

Neutral = no control....except steering....not a good idea

you don't want to upset the balance of the car.....especially in the turn


Modified by Maxx44 at 9:40 AM 5/21/2004

 

No throttle in the turn = spin

 

When turning the outside wheel with accelerate faster than the inside wheel helping you pull around the corner faster. It has to be this way, when cornering the outside wheel has to travel a longer distance than the inside wheel.


This especially comes into play with a LSD trans. More power to the outside wheel helps you corner faster. Honda implemented the ATTS system, which puts 80% of the engines torque to the outside wheel on the new Prelude type SH and it definitely works. Too bad the damn thing is a pig at over 3,000 lbs.

So if you are in neutral, you won't get that affect on cornering and you will have a greater chance of sliding out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by roadawg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When turning the outside wheel with accelerate faster than the inside wheel helping you pull around the corner faster. It has to be this way, when cornering the outside wheel has to travel a longer distance than the inside wheel.


This especially comes into play with a LSD trans. More power to the outside wheel helps you corner faster. Honda implemented the ATTS system, which puts 80% of the engines torque to the outside wheel on the new Prelude type SH and it definitely works. Too bad the damn thing is a pig at over 3,000 lbs.

So if you are in neutral, you won't get that affect on cornering and you will have a greater chance of sliding out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My head hurts

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by roadawg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When turning the outside wheel with accelerate faster than the inside wheel helping you pull around the corner faster. It has to be this way, when cornering the outside wheel has to travel a longer distance than the inside wheel.


This especially comes into play with a LSD trans. More power to the outside wheel helps you corner faster. Honda implemented the ATTS system on the new Prelude type SH and it definitely works.

So if you are in neutral, you won't get that affect on cornering and you will have a greater chance of sliding out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hate to turn this thing into a debate...however... sliding out has more to do with weight transfer and traction issues than the lack of a limited slip or a electronic LSD (ATTS). Unless you mean sliding out as in "understeer."

When you mentioned, LSD/ATTS/etc. will help a car corner faster is true, but it hasn't nothing to do with oversteer. It has everything to do with understeer and the powering out of a corner.

Now we can get into an even larger discussion about 1 way, 1.5 way, or 2 way LSD's and whether or not having an LSD work under braking is necessary, etc. etc. Now, this, I have very little knowledge. I think http://www.howstuffworks.com has an article or two on this.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My head hurts </TD></TR></TABLE>

shhhhhh..........ignore it and it might go away.

 

i see what every one is saying, but the car seems to turn in so much better when off the throttle (SOMETIMES)....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by georgiajdm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i see what every one is saying, but the car seems to turn in so much better when off the throttle (SOMETIMES)....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Off the throttle != in neutral

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by georgiajdm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i see what every one is saying, but the car seems to turn in so much better when off the throttle (SOMETIMES)....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Turn-In and In the corner are two different parts of the turn.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Turn-In and In the corner are two different parts of the turn.</TD></TR></TABLE>

which part of the turn is "in the corner?"

 

i personally will downshift while im braking and keep my foot on the clutch and then let the clutch out slowly as i throttle through the apex. that time when im on the clutch is essentially neutral, but i have control over the throttle at the least. this is only on the street tho. when on the track, its brake, heel-toe downshift, brake and ease off brake and roll on throttle.

 

This is one of those things that it seems so many new drivers fall into doing when i instruct. I have had to spend session after session trying to correct this.

Basic flaw with it. If you go through the corner in neutral (coasting out of gear, or clutch in) then at some point you are going to have to let the clutch back out. We all know (or should know) that this upsets the car. So the effect on entry may be minimal, or at least predictable (as trail braking would be) its the after effect of coming back off the clutch and enguaging power to the wheels.

I guess if you waited till you were back in a straight line to get back in gear then it wouldn't upset the car..but if you are waiting till you are straight to get back on the throttle...well..uh...nevermind.

Again I guess that you could rev match and shift on exit without upsetting the car..but tere are far better things to do with corner exit.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

which part of the turn is "in the corner?"

</TD></TR></TABLE>

the initial turn into the curve... once in the turn a lot of speed is scrubbed away..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again I guess that you could rev match and shift on exit without upsetting the car.http://www.seat-time.com</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes, throttle on and let the clutch out slowly. no upsetting the car, better than having to actually shift in the turn.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by El Pollo Diablo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">which part of the turn is "in the corner?"

</TD></TR></TABLE>

The part where j00 spin off into the grass in T1 @ VIR

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The part where j00 spin off into the grass in T1 @ VIR </TD></TR></TABLE>


I never spun off anywhere! get j00r "facts" straight

All my off's were in a relatively straight line

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yes, throttle on and let the clutch out slowly. no upsetting the car, better than having to actually shift in the turn.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, like i said, you could..but i dont see why. As everyone said its better to have the throttle and steering to control the car. There are still very few reasons to downshift in the corner. (Certianly not as he is saying..on corner exit because neutral made turn-in better)

I think simply he is feeling better turn in because he is off throttle, its slowing down and giving the trail brake effect.

Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com

 

it's slow, don't do it, case closed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Right, like i said, you could..but i dont see why. As everyone said its better to have the throttle and steering to control the car.

I think simply he is feeling better turn in because he is off throttle, its slowing down and giving the trail brake effect.

Jon K </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not to mention the most important combination of throttle and steering....throttle steering! Especially for those long, carousel turns. It probably feels more comfortable to him, because he's not fighting the effects of trailing throttle or over-rev on his downshift and we all know that a comfortable car is a slow car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FormulaIntegra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Not to mention the most important combination of throttle and steering....throttle steering! Especially for those long, carousel turns. It probably feels more comfortable to him, because he's not fighting the effects of trailing throttle or over-rev on his downshift and we all know that a comfortable car is a slow car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i don't think anyone is dumb enough to ride a carousal in neutral... a lot of speed would be scrubbed away in that situation.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by georgiajdm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i don't think anyone is dumb enough to ride a carousal in neutral... a lot of speed would be scrubbed away in that situation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but they would be on corner entry?