phat-S

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If I were choosing an ITA car right now I'd have a hard time picking one. Compare that to about 2 years ago when the obvious choice was a 2nd gen CRX. Now... Well... I dunno.
THATS what I'm talking about. When there is no obvious Odog in a class and a whole bunch of reasonable choices that can win races. ITA is now (tentatively) chock full of potential winning chassis.
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The 2G Integra and 1.6L Miata were classed in ITA three years ago and there has not been any change to either one of these cars to make it any more or less competetive. Just took a couple people wringing more out of them ...

krshultz

[QUOTE=Catch 22]A 2590lb GSR... Just moved up to 3rd on my list/QUOTE]

Mine too.

stevel

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Everything in IT is region specific. For example, people who race in a region where nobody has developed a E36 BMW might wonder what the hell we're talking about. But if you run SARRC or MARRS... You know.

Some representative ARRC things from the past couple of years that seem to bear out the general thoughts often given in this thread...

- ITS entries are down. Most of the cars showing up are BMWs. The cars finishing up front are of the $40+ variety
- There are no $10K Spec Miatas finishing anywhere near the front. I doubt there was one in the top 10. The top 5 cars were all cars that you'd pay $20+K to own.
- - ITA entries look stable, and will get even more stable with all the new classifications. Hondas still dominate, subject to change.

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Some things I've noticed in just the past 2 seasons in the NER.

ITS entries are record highs and just keep growing. The RX7 is the most popular but the E36's are the car to beat. A guy named Mike Sabatello came up to an NER regional at LRP and wiped the field of some very accomplished E36 and RX7 drivers with his 1988 E30 though. The field included NERRC and NARRC champs, and some top 5 finishers at the ARRC. Haven't seen that car show up again but the guy must be able to drive and build a hell of an E30. It was an awesome race to watch.

ITA entries just keep growing also. At a pretty quick pace. 2nd gen Integras are the car to beat and one in particular is so developed he could regularly finish in the top 5 in ITS.

Keep in mind the 2 tracks I've seen this at are both 1.5 mil tracks and not horsepower tracks by any means. NHIS and LRP. LRP is a momentum track and NHIS is a technical track that to me favors handling and good gearing over sheer power, not to mention good brakes.

Just some food for thought.

s

JoelG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Keep in mind the 2 tracks I've seen this at are both 1.5 mil tracks and not horsepower tracks by any means. NHIS and LRP. LRP is a momentum track and NHIS is a technical track that to me favors handling and good gearing over sheer power, not to mention good brakes.
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I managed to stay out of this so far, but...

I'm thinking that most of the tracks in the SEDIV are HP tracks. The only ones I know first hand are VIR and Lowes, and they certainly are. This explains a lot about why the e36 rules the SEDIV and mid atlantic so totally

You GSR guys don't get a lot of sympathy from me. Ed's Yorks e30 made 150 whp. This is in a car that weighs 2750 and has the aerodynamics of a brick. Ed's e30 held the ITS track record at summit point at one time. The best lap times at SP by GSRs are well under that record already.

People keep talking about moving the e36. Where are you going to move it? T2 is not an option. It's a showroom stock class and the e36s (at least the 2.5L cars) are all too old. IMNSHO, there either needs to be a IT class above S for the newer cars coming into IT (many of which are going to be at least as capable as the 2.5L e36 is) or older cars need to go down.

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by phat-S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The 2G Integra and 1.6L Miata were classed in ITA three years ago and there has not been any change to either one of these cars to make it any more or less competetive. Just took a couple people wringing more out of them ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Neither of those cars need any changes. Nobody is having to bolt in 100lbs of lead and a spare tire to run them. Thats my guess as to why GSRs aren't really being built and developed. People do the math at 2690lbs and say "uhhhh... Nevermind."

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

People keep talking about moving the e36. Where are you going to move it? T2 is not an option. It's a showroom stock class and the e36s (at least the 2.5L cars) are all too old. IMNSHO, there either needs to be a IT class above S for the newer cars coming into IT (many of which are going to be at least as capable as the 2.5L e36 is) or older cars need to go down.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've been saying for a while that there needs to be an "ITR" class above ITS. E36 BMW, E30 M3, Type R, Prelude VTEC, 944s, and earlier 911s for starters.

jwalter

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I've been saying for a while that there needs to be an "ITR" class above ITS. E36 BMW, E30 M3, Type R, Prelude VTEC, 944s, and earlier 911s for starters.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually I believe the SCCA is considering adding another IT class. I distinctly remember reading about it in the previous (not the most recent) SportsCar issue. I don't have it in front of me, but I'll dig it up when I get home. If I recall, they said they would shuffle a lot of cars around to make four IT classes. I believe it was in the same article about SS cars coming to IT.

IT wasn't supposed to have competition adjustments either, but they are considering that as well. I believe that was in the last issue of SportsCar.

Of course, talking about something doesn't mean it's actually going to happen.

Knestis

If there was a SportsCar conversation about new IT classes, I missed it. There WAS an article about the idea of a new category that would essentially transplant WCTC into club racing. The shame is that - once again - the assumption is that it needs to be for 250hp cars rather than 150hp cars.

K

JoelG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There WAS an article about the idea of a new category that would essentially transplant WCTC into club racing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I saw that too. It sounds like the answer to a question I haven't heard anyone ask. But maybe that's because I've been hanging around guys with outclassed ITS cars, and guys with successful cars in in ITA, B & C that don't want to see the status quo changed by having the uncompetetive cars move down. Maybe I'm hanging around with the wrong guys?

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I saw that too. It sounds like the answer to a question I haven't heard anyone ask. But maybe that's because I've been hanging around guys with outclassed ITS cars, and guys with successful cars in in ITA, B & C that don't want to see the status quo changed by having the uncompetetive cars move down. Maybe I'm hanging around with the wrong guys?

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I'm one of those IT guys that is doing well but doesn't mind the slower IT cars from the class above mine getting bumped down. As long as its done properly there shouldn't be any issues and it should improve the competition for everyone. So far I haven't seen a single suggested reclass that made me go "Hey... Now wait just a damned minute."
So far, so good.

granracing

I've spoken with a bunch of the top ITB drivers about these moves. They've all had the same basic feeling that Scott mentioned. I've also spoken with several ITA drivers.

I personally love having more cars to battle with, esp. different types. Makes it much more fun. Now if a car was being moved that would change the class structure, that would be different.

From what I've heard, it isn't the top guys that have grumbled. It has been the mid to back pack guys thinking they will be pushed further back.

The comp boards use specific cars to judge where other cars should be classes. They serve as the cars to base things on; such as the CRX, Integra (ITA), ect.

FLATOUTRACING

I agree with what is being said about not changing class structure and upsetting the current balance.

My H4 car, which is technically an LS model, has to run in ITS where it's about 100 hp down on the E36. My car just got reclassed to ITA (or such has been proposed).

My car is a good example of a car that needs to be put in ITA. Ginsberg and I run in H4. His CRX and my LS are very close in performance and I think we are both close in terms of driver skill. My LS runs about the same lap times as Greg's car (Greg is a bit faster...1/2 second or so).

My car is a good fit in ITA. One it's nearly 10 years old (8 yrs) and it runs the same lap times as ITA.

The GSR is a different story as it can't be put in another class.

Jon

jwalter

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If there was a SportsCar conversation about new IT classes, I missed it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I found it. It was actually in the June issue.

From the article
"Performance Compensation Adjustments"
The proposal also provides the opportunity to adjust weight appropriately on cars that have been moved up or down a class due to performance potential. That proposal, if approved...would become effective on Jan. 1, 2005

Later in the article
The coming years might see an intensive restructure of the IT category to adjust for the changing world of new car performance...Weiss point out. One possibility under consideration is a fifth class within IT

Not a bad article. It talks about SS cars moving into IT as well.