Car: 100% Stock 2002 Accord on 205/60-15 AVS ES100s (next set will probably be Azenis). I've autocrossed for a little over 1 year now, and it's time I add some negative camber up front (been killing tires with rollover).

I am about purchase a pair of Ingalls camber-adjustable front UCAs and a slightly bigger rear sway (19mm rear sway off of a 99-03 Acura TL-S, vs. my stock 16mm).

According to Ingall's site, the UCAs can add up to -2* camber. Assuming that it is even possible to add that much camber without having the knuckles collide with the shocks, can you recommend how much camber to run up front? Can I ruin my outer CVs by running too much camber on stock height?

Currently I have:
Front: ~+0.2* camber, 0 toe, 2.1L*/2.5R* caster
Rear: ~-0.5* camber, 0 toe

After I get my frame fixed I could have much closer to 3* of caster on both sides (once the left side of the crossbeam is straightened, and the 0.6* caster shim on the right side is deleted).

Also, judging from this picture, do you predict that I would have any problems with these (my price is less than 1/2 of the MSRP)? I know a lot of you guys have had trouble with the Skunk2 UCAs due to the lack of positive stops. The below part is the only UCA available for the 98-02 Accord, making it best front camber solution out there...

http://www.ingallseng.com/parts/39201-39204.htm




Modified by LX4CYL at 2:57 AM 10/22/2004

 

bump. I've never seen this forum move so fast!

 

I assume it is typical double wishbone suspension. Not too much negative camber, my crx has almost -3 degrees. Will it destroy cv's? No. Will it put more wear on them? Yes. Probably throw you out of stock class; not as familiar w/ rules as I used to be. If you are trying to get better turn in, I'd toe out the front 1/16-1/8in total. If it is an understeering pig, I'd look at throwing some toe out in the rear also. No knowledge about control arms and if they will stay put; live and learn I guess

 

If the UCAs slip, I'll throw them through the Ingalls Head Office front window

I already know that I will have to kiss H-STock goodbye, hence why I'm also getting the bigger rear sway for now...

 

Any system that uses a friction element like those arms and the Skunk arms will slip when enough force is applied. No way around that without welding or incorporating some kind of spline system.

 

I'll just use zip ties

 

Doesn't the Ingals UCA have bolts to keep it in place? Do you mean the ball joint type connection to the knuckle will keep sliding left to right? How will it slip?

What other UCAs out there are different and in what way are they better? I 'm interested in a set but for my g3 GSR.

 

Well, I haven't actually seen one of these Ingalls UCAs in person, but the "slipping" I was talking about happens when the ball joint slips on the adjustment plate.

Here's a more clear example:


See how the only thing preventing the ball joint from sliding around is one big nut? If it isn't tight enough, it'll slide around.

 

well, I'm still not sure of what number I'm looking at here. As close as possible to -2*? -1.5* Or maybe -1.0*?

 

Rule of thump in auto-x is 2-2.5 front and 1.5 rear. This is all negative camber (-) of course.

I used to have -2.3L and -2.2R just by being lowered with the short body Advance Design shocks, and -1.5 in the rear. Now I 'm back on the Konis and I only have -1.4F and -0.9R! but my car is raised of course. Can't get much suspension travel with stock height Konis.. I 'm going to get them shortened.

 

haha, I'm limited to -0.5* in the rear, and just a tad under -2* in the front when I install the camber adjusters up front...

 

Hope this helps...

1993 Civic DX Coupe

103.2" wheelbase (quite long for a subcompact, not as long as your Accord's, but significantly longer than those who make suggestions with CRX's and Miata's!)

Primary driver (me) sitting in car at time of alignment.

>>> Camber (no kits, just whatever I gain or lose from lowering the GC perches when it is cornerweighted)

Front: -1.5* [+/- .2* L-R variation]

Rear: -1.2* [+/- .3* L-R variation]

>>> Toe

Front: -3/8" total toe out

Rear: -1/8" total toe out

Overall response is incredible, turn-in is "now", negotiates slaloms extremely well, very stable through switchbacks, with the LSD, it drives off of many corners like a rwd car, and no issues on street.

I use hard BFG all-season radials day-to-day, Hoosiers on the weekend.

Admittedly, I would never do a HPDE with these settings though, this is solely an autocross monster.


Anthony "Mario" Crea


BTW, I drive a 99 Accord everyday. Solid car, it is the team road rally vehicle of choice! The Pine Barrens Express is coming up again.

 

Hmm, thanks for the input! I Guess I've figured out how much camber I should run (pretty much max ~-1.5). Now, about the toe. I auto-x and daily drive on the same street tires, so I'd like to be able to milk as many miles as possible from my tires without sacrificing "performance." Obviously I will still go thru tires too fast to notice any added wear from running a lot of toe out... I'd also like the car to be somewhat stable at highway speeds. How does all of that toe out affect daily driving?

3/8" front toe out seems like an awful lot of toe for the front in my case. Perhaps I should consider 0 rear toe and maybe 1/16" front toe out?

 

Have you checked out what Specialty Products offers? I'm not a fan of Ingalls.

http://www.specprod.com

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Outrun &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you checked out what Specialty Products offers? I'm not a fan of Ingalls.

http://www.specprod.com</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep, they just make the adjustable ball joints. I've always heard of the adjustable ball joints causing the UCA to hit the fender (due to added height), but every Accord owner i've talked to have had no reported problems with the SPC balljoints causing fender clearance issues. However, I decided to go with the Ingalls full UCAs since the price was only a little higher...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hmm, thanks for the input! I Guess I've figured out how much camber I should run (pretty much max ~-1.5). Now, about the toe. I auto-x and daily drive on the same street tires, so I'd like to be able to milk as many miles as possible from my tires without sacrificing "performance." Obviously I will still go thru tires too fast to notice any added wear from running a lot of toe out... I'd also like the car to be somewhat stable at highway speeds. How does all of that toe out affect daily driving?

3/8" front toe out seems like an awful lot of toe for the front in my case. Perhaps I should consider 0 rear toe and maybe 1/16" front toe out?</TD></TR></TABLE>

As I said, things aren't bad at all. If anything, I'd say -1/8 total front and rear. The numbers are still subtle, yet it'll help a long (for autocrossing) relatively unresponsive chassis rotate better.

Anthony "Mario" Crea

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by honda93 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

As I said, things aren't bad at all. If anything, I'd say -1/8 total front and rear. The numbers are still subtle, yet it'll help a long (for autocrossing) relatively unresponsive chassis rotate better.

Anthony "Mario" Crea</TD></TR></TABLE>

In ur opinion, driving at 75+mph on the highway everyday, would I notice a difference between having 0 toe all around and having -1/8 all around?

Will having this much toe in combination with lots of camber be bad for my AX/street tires?

Again, since I'm AXing (2+ times a month) on the same tires I daily drive on, I would want more of the tire wear to occur during auto-x, on the outside edges, instead of burning the insides of the tires on the highway and streets. Will -1/8" toe give me the best of both worlds?

I'm not comfortable with the idea but if it's worth it then I'm all up for it...

-LX4CYL
Needs a little more reassurance

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LX4CYL &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

In ur opinion, driving at 75+mph on the highway everyday, would I notice a difference between having 0 toe all around and having -1/8 all around?

Will having this much toe in combination with lots of camber be bad for my AX/street tires?

Again, since I'm AXing (2+ times a month) on the same tires I daily drive on, I would want more of the tire wear to occur during auto-x, on the outside edges, instead of burning the insides of the tires on the highway and streets. Will -1/8" toe give me the best of both worlds?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, No, Yes. Toe out the rear if you have to

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No, No, Yes. Toe out the rear if you have to </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for agreeing. In the end, do what you will be most comfortable driving with. Take my word for it though, a car with a wheelbase as long as the Accords isn't going anywhere fast without a little help on the alignment rack.

Anthony "Mario" Crea

 

Athony,
I don't know. I have found out over the years and after 3 different suspensions, that alignment settings work differently for different cars (yours a Civic, his an Accord, mine an Integra with a smaller wheelbase, etc.) and different suspensions.

When my spring rates were softer (400/475) my car handled best with a lot of toe-out in the front (1/4-3/8") and some toe out in the rear (1/8 to 1/5").
I then went up to 600/750 spring rates and needed to reduce the toe-out in the front and go with slight toe-in in the rear to make the car as fast as before. Toe-out in the rear actually hurts me now (not sure why yet) the higher I go with the spring rates in the rear. The car is more responsive and gives better turn-in with the rear wheels toed in. I was at Chris Shenefield's shop last year and I was surprised to find out he was also running toe-in the rear as well on his &lt;2100lb g4 Civic HB with 550lb rear spring rates. I asked him if I could drive it and he threw me the keys. Drove around town semi-spirited and thought the car was on rails. He came in 2nd at the Nationals 2mos later with that car. So I think every car is different and alignment settings depend on the suspension, sway bars, ride height, weight, etc. I thought there was a general rule of thumb or some kind of standard but found out there isn't. One thing is for sure. We need toe-out in the front in our FWD cars for auto-x. How much toe out in the front and whether that's true for the rear or not, is still controversial and up to the person's driving style and personal experience with his/her car and suspension.

I 'll be at Etown if not on the 7th, the 14th. Maybe we can talk about it some more and try to make some sense out of it all.. I have to pick up my '03 end-of-season trophy which is getting thrown around in the van for the last 10 months and get 1 more event in before the season comes to a close