how reliable is h23 vtec?
12-08-2003, 03:21 PM
#52
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
what do you mean no one has proven?
So many people have already proven what people refuse to believe. Learn from experience, go right ahead. Several of us have already learned. I have a 2.3L h22a, displacement is easy enough to get if you want it. And I have a better powerband than any H23, and it will last longer. Despite all the safety checks you can do you are still fighting against physics, so throw all the reasoning you want at it, it's still a fact that can't be denied.
An h23 VTEC is less reliable in many ways than an equally built H22a at any rpms.
So many people have already proven what people refuse to believe. Learn from experience, go right ahead. Several of us have already learned. I have a 2.3L h22a, displacement is easy enough to get if you want it. And I have a better powerband than any H23, and it will last longer. Despite all the safety checks you can do you are still fighting against physics, so throw all the reasoning you want at it, it's still a fact that can't be denied.
An h23 VTEC is less reliable in many ways than an equally built H22a at any rpms.
12-08-2003, 04:10 PM
#53
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what do you mean no one has proven?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
As in I have not seen any, except for yours, H23 VTEC's that blew that were FOR SURE built correctly. Most people have simply threw in the H23 crank and rods, or did the head swap and called it a day. They didn't balance anything, polish anything, no machine work, etc....
EDIT - Also, most people expect to rev this thing up to ungodly RPM's, assuming revving is good. Even if they don't, it seems like the kind of people that have done this motor have driven it like they stole it.....which is not good for ANY motor, regardless of type.
I HAVE heard of quite a few H23 VTEC's that were built correctly that have been runnin strong for quite some time, whether w/ a bulletproof bottom end or stock parts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Despite all the safety checks you can do you are still fighting against physics, so throw all the reasoning you want at it, it's still a fact that can't be denied.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What physics? R/S ratio? Care to elaborate?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
An h23 VTEC is less reliable in many ways than an equally built H22a at any rpms.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have to disagree, but then again I have not built any H-motors yet, I am just going off of other motor's experience.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
As in I have not seen any, except for yours, H23 VTEC's that blew that were FOR SURE built correctly. Most people have simply threw in the H23 crank and rods, or did the head swap and called it a day. They didn't balance anything, polish anything, no machine work, etc....
EDIT - Also, most people expect to rev this thing up to ungodly RPM's, assuming revving is good. Even if they don't, it seems like the kind of people that have done this motor have driven it like they stole it.....which is not good for ANY motor, regardless of type.
I HAVE heard of quite a few H23 VTEC's that were built correctly that have been runnin strong for quite some time, whether w/ a bulletproof bottom end or stock parts.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Despite all the safety checks you can do you are still fighting against physics, so throw all the reasoning you want at it, it's still a fact that can't be denied.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What physics? R/S ratio? Care to elaborate?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
An h23 VTEC is less reliable in many ways than an equally built H22a at any rpms.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have to disagree, but then again I have not built any H-motors yet, I am just going off of other motor's experience.
12-09-2003, 06:34 AM
#54
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">An h23 VTEC is less reliable in many ways than an equally built H22a at any rpms.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A stock h23 (from the factory) is less reliable than an equal H22? It seems to me that with a h23vtec nothing is changed in the factory design as far as the geometry is concerened, as it is like adding a ported head and bigger duration cams. So is this all about the R/S ratio in your opinion? None of us here (IMO) are building a factory engine, so the reliability will not be that of a factory engine.
There will always be a trade off when you modify a factory built engine.
I guess by the explanations above, my engine doesn't work due to Physics...Hmmmmm. I will consider this later today when I drive it home from work.
Modified by 2point6 at 9:29 AM 12/9/2003
A stock h23 (from the factory) is less reliable than an equal H22? It seems to me that with a h23vtec nothing is changed in the factory design as far as the geometry is concerened, as it is like adding a ported head and bigger duration cams. So is this all about the R/S ratio in your opinion? None of us here (IMO) are building a factory engine, so the reliability will not be that of a factory engine.
There will always be a trade off when you modify a factory built engine.
I guess by the explanations above, my engine doesn't work due to Physics...Hmmmmm. I will consider this later today when I drive it home from work.
Modified by 2point6 at 9:29 AM 12/9/2003
12-09-2003, 12:11 PM
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Re: how reliable is h23 vtec? (chyknees)
I have had mine to 8500rpm with no problems with the crank. Just some dumb luck with a crank pulley backing out! DOH!!
12-09-2003, 01:59 PM
#56
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Re: (2point6)
not R/S Ratio. Just stroke. Revving a larger stroke at higher rpms than normal is not good. It is physics, I'm not saying your engine doesn't work. It's just that much better materials and care are need to make sure it lasts. I don't care to get into an argument over facts.
12-09-2003, 08:08 PM
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not R/S Ratio. Just stroke. Revving a larger stroke at higher rpms than normal is not good. </TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed.
thats the thing i dont understand... if one wants to rev the sh*t of a h-series forget about the h23v cause your going the other way around. adding the vtec head h23 should be thought, as previously posted by someone else before, adding a performance head. and it does not mean that just cause you mount the vtec head that you couuld rev to 7800 rpm, u kno unless you work on the bottom end.
agreed.
thats the thing i dont understand... if one wants to rev the sh*t of a h-series forget about the h23v cause your going the other way around. adding the vtec head h23 should be thought, as previously posted by someone else before, adding a performance head. and it does not mean that just cause you mount the vtec head that you couuld rev to 7800 rpm, u kno unless you work on the bottom end.
12-10-2003, 02:56 AM
#58
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not R/S Ratio. Just stroke. Revving a larger stroke at higher rpms than normal is not good. It is physics, I'm not saying your engine doesn't work. It's just that much better materials and care are need to make sure it lasts. I don't care to get into an argument over facts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I posted this in another thread and thought it would also petain to this. you are right though, satan_srv.
"i think that is just about the simplest answer to that problem, the big stroke. so many people for some reason automatically assume that spinning higher rpms will net you greater power output, which is true to an extent, but at what cost?....dramatically increasing loads to components that are not designed to handle those kind of stresses. with the h series with its relatively large stroke and wider rod angle piston speeds become cumulatively greater and greater as rpms increase as opposed to the more rpm friendly shorter stroke and longer rod B series engies. with a greater throw crank (greater rod journal offest in relation to the main journals) there's a limit to the amount of stress (rpms) that it can take before it literally wants to snap in two, one area of concern is the VERY abrupt change in piston direction that the large stroke/short rods and rpms dictate.
that's one aspect that also pertains to another engine which i'm currently building and having to take into consideration, a 500ci cadillac engine. with it's large stroke of 4.304in. and short rod lengths of 6.750in., that equates to a rod ratio of approx 1.56, which is very close to the H series. with the cadillac engines the main positive aspect that you want to play on is the pure grunt torque that they produce (same as the Hs) and relying on that for acceleration. sure you could twist them 8 or 9 grand but you'd be greaty compromising the strength of the components, which in my case is why 5,000rpm is the most that that that engine will ever see unless I plan to spend a shitload of money on bluprinting the engine from top to botton and making sure that eveything is match to everything else for whatever application. one statement that ive heard before explains it simply, an engineering compromise.
all in all it's an inherent design flaw which all fwd inline4 engines possess because of having to design an engine that will fit under a low hood line and at the same time provide enough ground clearance to avoid road obstacles, an engineering compromise
there's certain positive aspects of every engine that you can play on to produce greater acceleration results, some may be tolerant of rpms which in that case would be an acceptable attribute to utilize, others may not like like it so much."
I posted this in another thread and thought it would also petain to this. you are right though, satan_srv.
"i think that is just about the simplest answer to that problem, the big stroke. so many people for some reason automatically assume that spinning higher rpms will net you greater power output, which is true to an extent, but at what cost?....dramatically increasing loads to components that are not designed to handle those kind of stresses. with the h series with its relatively large stroke and wider rod angle piston speeds become cumulatively greater and greater as rpms increase as opposed to the more rpm friendly shorter stroke and longer rod B series engies. with a greater throw crank (greater rod journal offest in relation to the main journals) there's a limit to the amount of stress (rpms) that it can take before it literally wants to snap in two, one area of concern is the VERY abrupt change in piston direction that the large stroke/short rods and rpms dictate.
that's one aspect that also pertains to another engine which i'm currently building and having to take into consideration, a 500ci cadillac engine. with it's large stroke of 4.304in. and short rod lengths of 6.750in., that equates to a rod ratio of approx 1.56, which is very close to the H series. with the cadillac engines the main positive aspect that you want to play on is the pure grunt torque that they produce (same as the Hs) and relying on that for acceleration. sure you could twist them 8 or 9 grand but you'd be greaty compromising the strength of the components, which in my case is why 5,000rpm is the most that that that engine will ever see unless I plan to spend a shitload of money on bluprinting the engine from top to botton and making sure that eveything is match to everything else for whatever application. one statement that ive heard before explains it simply, an engineering compromise.
all in all it's an inherent design flaw which all fwd inline4 engines possess because of having to design an engine that will fit under a low hood line and at the same time provide enough ground clearance to avoid road obstacles, an engineering compromise
there's certain positive aspects of every engine that you can play on to produce greater acceleration results, some may be tolerant of rpms which in that case would be an acceptable attribute to utilize, others may not like like it so much."
12-10-2003, 04:38 AM
#59
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Re: (SUB-0 H23)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SUB-0 H23 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">head to head the h23 vtec should be able to take the h22 </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sure...if you say so...
I'll believe it when I see it.
Sure...if you say so...
I'll believe it when I see it.
12-10-2003, 06:25 AM
#60
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Re: (explosive)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by explosive »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Sure...if you say so...
I'll believe it when I see it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll let ya know the results in a few months...
Sure...if you say so...
I'll believe it when I see it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll let ya know the results in a few months...
12-10-2003, 09:32 AM
#61
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not R/S Ratio. Just stroke. Revving a larger stroke at higher rpms than normal is not good. It is physics, I'm not saying your engine doesn't work. It's just that much better materials and care are need to make sure it lasts. I don't care to get into an argument over facts.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am in no way arguing with you. Please understand.
I understand your point about the laws of physics as well... you can't argue with that. All I was trying to say is that no "race engine" will ever be as reliable as a factory engine. reliability aside, why not build an engine that makes more power? As long as the builder recognizes the trade offs, The h23vtec can be made to run really well.
I am in no way arguing with you. Please understand.
I understand your point about the laws of physics as well... you can't argue with that. All I was trying to say is that no "race engine" will ever be as reliable as a factory engine. reliability aside, why not build an engine that makes more power? As long as the builder recognizes the trade offs, The h23vtec can be made to run really well.
12-10-2003, 03:41 PM
#62
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Re: (2point6)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I am in no way arguing with you. Please understand. I understand your point about the laws of physics as well... you can't argue with that. All I was trying to say is that no "race engine" will ever be as reliable as a factory engine. reliability aside, why not build an engine that makes more power? As long as the builder recognizes the trade offs, The h23vtec can be made to run really well.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed, but then there are other factors. I do not believe the H23 crank is of the same build quality as the H22a crank. I mean you yourself are using a rewelded H22a crank, and not an H23. So I can't really say your reliability makes a good case for an H23 crank, since you never used one to begin with.
I agree a bigger stroke as long as it holds together makes more power, but I feel the H23 crank is just not up to the task long term.
If I hadn't blow one already, i would think about doing one I'm sure, but I don't feel like going through that again
I am in no way arguing with you. Please understand.
I understand your point about the laws of physics as well... you can't argue with that. All I was trying to say is that no "race engine" will ever be as reliable as a factory engine. reliability aside, why not build an engine that makes more power? As long as the builder recognizes the trade offs, The h23vtec can be made to run really well.</TD></TR></TABLE>Agreed, but then there are other factors. I do not believe the H23 crank is of the same build quality as the H22a crank. I mean you yourself are using a rewelded H22a crank, and not an H23. So I can't really say your reliability makes a good case for an H23 crank, since you never used one to begin with.
I agree a bigger stroke as long as it holds together makes more power, but I feel the H23 crank is just not up to the task long term.
If I hadn't blow one already, i would think about doing one I'm sure, but I don't feel like going through that again
12-11-2003, 06:58 AM
#63
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Re: (satan_srv)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Agreed, but then there are other factors. I do not believe the H23 crank is of the same build quality as the H22a crank. I mean you yourself are using a rewelded H22a crank, and not an H23. So I can't really say your reliability makes a good case for an H23 crank, since you never used one to begin with. </TD></TR></TABLE> I also feel that the H22 crank is of a different quality. For A welded stroker build I would suggest not using a rewelded h23 crank, instead it would be the h22 crank or a billet crower crank. I have used the H23 crank in quite a few other engines and they have lasted as well, but they were unmodified, balanced cranks. I feel that line boring the jounals so they are all the same size, and running the oil clearance a little looser (.020) helps with the oiling issues. Looking at your pictures, I am convinced this failure was due to oiling and nothing more.
07-16-2011, 09:32 PM
#65
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Re: how reliable is h23 vtec?
i know this is a dinosaur thread but im asking my self whit time passed im sure their is more people that have done succesfull h23 vtec hybrids( h23 block h22a head) i currently im working on one already assembled the head to the block but im thinking on adding the squirters and the oil pump from the h22 see how it does i dont care much of over reving this thing i currently have a h22a whit b16 tranny and only rev the thing to 7200 have no problem spanking heads so if this h23 setup has good torque it shuldnt matter but will love to get some new opinions of previews builds
thanks
thanks
07-17-2011, 12:01 PM
#66
Re: how reliable is h23 vtec?
For thought on the oiling, which seems to be the big issue, where do you want/ need the oil in an H23 VTEC? All of the failures in these engines happen at the crank, not the pistons, which is what the oil squirters are for. There is an easy way to increase oil pressure to the crank, delete the balance shafts properly. Between this and running slightly loose clearances so that the oil flows, such as .020 as other have suggested, you should have the best chance of the engine surviving, especially if revved higher.
I split the fence on my build, as I set the clearances at .020, deleted the balance shafts and plugged everything to increase crank oiling, and deleted the squirters. However, since I was building this engine as budget race engine, I did not balance the crank. I only have about 1k miles on mine so far, but it runs well, quite a bit quicker than the H22 I pulled out, which is ready to go back in if I do kill this one. The only problems I have are my fault, a coolant leak I just haven't tracked down yet, and I had my crank pulley bolt back out, since I was lazy and didn't torque it correctly. Luckily the car died at low rpm, and the engine is ok!
I split the fence on my build, as I set the clearances at .020, deleted the balance shafts and plugged everything to increase crank oiling, and deleted the squirters. However, since I was building this engine as budget race engine, I did not balance the crank. I only have about 1k miles on mine so far, but it runs well, quite a bit quicker than the H22 I pulled out, which is ready to go back in if I do kill this one. The only problems I have are my fault, a coolant leak I just haven't tracked down yet, and I had my crank pulley bolt back out, since I was lazy and didn't torque it correctly. Luckily the car died at low rpm, and the engine is ok!
07-18-2011, 05:23 PM
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Re: how reliable is h23 vtec? (92preludeSIwp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92preludeSIwp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have the h23 vtec it kinda scars people and the call me crazy...stupid non intelligent personell that don't know about cars. i love the h23 vtec. it works for me. slight electrical problem with it in the begining but now running boost through it and it seems to love it. if you do it correctly it's worth it. but if not sure about it just go all h22. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd agree with this person.... You really need to do some research and have a fully built motor for that....because just stock h23vtec your bearings will go out soon and a new block will be needed..... In the long run it will eventually start to wear our faster than a H22. I had a H23vtec and spun a bearing.... so I went with h22 all the way... its great now but without the tq.
I'd agree with this person.... You really need to do some research and have a fully built motor for that....because just stock h23vtec your bearings will go out soon and a new block will be needed..... In the long run it will eventually start to wear our faster than a H22. I had a H23vtec and spun a bearing.... so I went with h22 all the way... its great now but without the tq.
07-18-2011, 05:56 PM
#68
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Re: how reliable is h23 vtec? (92preludeSIwp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92preludeSIwp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have the h23 vtec it kinda scars people and the call me crazy...stupid non intelligent personell that don't know about cars. i love the h23 vtec. it works for me. slight electrical problem with it in the begining but now running boost through it and it seems to love it. if you do it correctly it's worth it. but if not sure about it just go all h22. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'd agree with this person.... You really need to do some research and have a fully built motor for that....because just stock h23vtec your bearings will go out soon and a new block will be needed..... In the long run it will eventually start to wear our faster than a H22. I had a H23vtec and spun a bearing.... so I went with h22 all the way... its great now but without the tq.
I'd agree with this person.... You really need to do some research and have a fully built motor for that....because just stock h23vtec your bearings will go out soon and a new block will be needed..... In the long run it will eventually start to wear our faster than a H22. I had a H23vtec and spun a bearing.... so I went with h22 all the way... its great now but without the tq.
07-19-2011, 06:34 AM
#69
Re: how reliable is h23 vtec?
^^You are quoting comments from 8 years ago!
In any case, I went from a JDM H22, to an H23 with high comp. pistons, and JDM cams, and my 1/4 time dropped by roughly half a second, and I gained 4-5 MPH on my trap speed. This isn't as simple as throwing the H22 head on an H23 bottom end, but pretty close. I had alot of other variables stay the same too, same weight of car, driver, tires, header, intake and exhaust on both engines etc.
And something to keep in mind, I am evidently in the group B, that has some money and crazy to do this, since I did it while having a running H22 that I can put back in the car at any time, and the car is my toy, not my DD. I only have about 600 bucks in my H23 build though, since I researched alot, and built it myself.
In any case, I went from a JDM H22, to an H23 with high comp. pistons, and JDM cams, and my 1/4 time dropped by roughly half a second, and I gained 4-5 MPH on my trap speed. This isn't as simple as throwing the H22 head on an H23 bottom end, but pretty close. I had alot of other variables stay the same too, same weight of car, driver, tires, header, intake and exhaust on both engines etc.
And something to keep in mind, I am evidently in the group B, that has some money and crazy to do this, since I did it while having a running H22 that I can put back in the car at any time, and the car is my toy, not my DD. I only have about 600 bucks in my H23 build though, since I researched alot, and built it myself.
07-19-2011, 10:18 AM
#70
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
what physics?
I love my h23v. an it was 4 tenths of a second faster then the A4 was with typ S internals.
.4 being the avg, 15-20 runs
I love my h23v. an it was 4 tenths of a second faster then the A4 was with typ S internals.
.4 being the avg, 15-20 runs
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