Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
07-21-2008, 04:10 PM
#26
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Re: (soulpwr)
Why dont all you guys just use the proper r-12? why spend all the money and time to convert? ITs still available (you need a license to buy it) and seems to work better. if you dont have a license any licensed shop can charge it, I think it would still be cheaper. I still have 10 or so pounds of the old r-12. I still come across some old cans of it at some swap meets and such.
07-21-2008, 04:18 PM
#27
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Re: (Crx Jimmy)
Well said. The problem was we didn't realize how widely available r12 is. We just blindly believed everyone who said it's virtually non-existent, etc. Expensive, yes, but very widely available. My brother, jonathan_ed3, got his EPA license so we've since stocked up on a bunch of r12. 
07-21-2008, 04:58 PM
#28
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Re: (James89DX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by James89DX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well said. The problem was we didn't realize how widely available r12 is. We just blindly believed everyone who said it's virtually non-existent, etc. Expensive, yes, but very widely available. My brother, jonathan_ed3, got his EPA license so we've since stocked up on a bunch of r12. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I have never heard from anyone, anywhere that r12 was non-existent, or in danger of being such. It's always been plentiful, AFAIK. The problem for me was always the price, not the availability. It just got too damn expensive.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I have never heard from anyone, anywhere that r12 was non-existent, or in danger of being such. It's always been plentiful, AFAIK. The problem for me was always the price, not the availability. It just got too damn expensive.
07-21-2008, 05:18 PM
#29
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (4crx4me)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4crx4me »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I always thought that this was common knowledge. Google 'r134a', and see what you get.
I guess it's just a question of what's more important to people, a cool *** while we are driving our cars in 2008 or a fried *** in 2038?
As a refrigerant r134a blows big time. I had it done to my 1990 CRX years ago.
r134a is 'supposedly' great for the environment. We shall see though, the jury is still out. But it's more 'ecologically friendly', than R-12, well at least as of 2008 it is. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's all relative. My '93 Civic has an R134 retrofit and it works decently well. For some reason, EF's just don't do well with conversions.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soulpwr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Converting the lines to r134a huh, I've never heard of that one, kinda sounds shady to me. Any pics to see what exactly they did. Side by side the rubber lines from say an EG/EK are made in the same fashion as those of an EF. Early EG's also came in both r12 and r134 with minimal system changes, but thats neither here nor there.</TD></TR></TABLE>
OE R134 cars have hoses designed for the smaller molecules found in that refrigerant. R12 works fine in these hoses, but not the other way around......... R134, in OE R12 hoses, will slowly leak out. The R134 can seep out of the actual hose wall. In other words, R12 hoses are too porous for R134. When the OE's started going with R134, they added an extra layer to the barrier hose (typically nylon, if my memory is accurate).
Additionally, barrier hose is only good for ~10 years - so getting new hoses made is by no means a bad thing.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crx Jimmy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why dont all you guys just use the proper r-12? why spend all the money and time to convert? ITs still available (you need a license to buy it) and seems to work better. if you dont have a license any licensed shop can charge it, I think it would still be cheaper. I still have 10 or so pounds of the old r-12. I still come across some old cans of it at some swap meets and such.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you read the responses lol? He has decided to go back to R12 after lackluster performance from R134.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4crx4me »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have never heard from anyone, anywhere that r12 was non-existent, or in danger of being such. It's always been plentiful, AFAIK. The problem for me was always the price, not the availability. It just got too damn expensive. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Where I work, we are not able to get ***LEGAL**** (I.E - we don't import illegal R12 like many other places) R12 in cans anymore. All we can get are 30lb cylinders.
I always thought that this was common knowledge. Google 'r134a', and see what you get.
I guess it's just a question of what's more important to people, a cool *** while we are driving our cars in 2008 or a fried *** in 2038?
As a refrigerant r134a blows big time. I had it done to my 1990 CRX years ago.
r134a is 'supposedly' great for the environment. We shall see though, the jury is still out. But it's more 'ecologically friendly', than R-12, well at least as of 2008 it is. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It's all relative. My '93 Civic has an R134 retrofit and it works decently well. For some reason, EF's just don't do well with conversions.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by soulpwr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Converting the lines to r134a huh, I've never heard of that one, kinda sounds shady to me. Any pics to see what exactly they did. Side by side the rubber lines from say an EG/EK are made in the same fashion as those of an EF. Early EG's also came in both r12 and r134 with minimal system changes, but thats neither here nor there.</TD></TR></TABLE>
OE R134 cars have hoses designed for the smaller molecules found in that refrigerant. R12 works fine in these hoses, but not the other way around......... R134, in OE R12 hoses, will slowly leak out. The R134 can seep out of the actual hose wall. In other words, R12 hoses are too porous for R134. When the OE's started going with R134, they added an extra layer to the barrier hose (typically nylon, if my memory is accurate).
Additionally, barrier hose is only good for ~10 years - so getting new hoses made is by no means a bad thing.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crx Jimmy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why dont all you guys just use the proper r-12? why spend all the money and time to convert? ITs still available (you need a license to buy it) and seems to work better. if you dont have a license any licensed shop can charge it, I think it would still be cheaper. I still have 10 or so pounds of the old r-12. I still come across some old cans of it at some swap meets and such.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you read the responses lol? He has decided to go back to R12 after lackluster performance from R134.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4crx4me »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have never heard from anyone, anywhere that r12 was non-existent, or in danger of being such. It's always been plentiful, AFAIK. The problem for me was always the price, not the availability. It just got too damn expensive. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Where I work, we are not able to get ***LEGAL**** (I.E - we don't import illegal R12 like many other places) R12 in cans anymore. All we can get are 30lb cylinders.
07-21-2008, 09:44 PM
#30
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (James89DX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by James89DX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I noticed that too about the top line on the condenser. When I was trying to source a good condenser for mine from the junkyard I noticed on every single car I checked out that that fitting was loose. I'm assuming it gets worked loose by radiator movement (whether by getting work done and just from movement over the years).
Modified by James89DX at 5:15 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
is that the condenser you're using now? if not what condenser are you using? the r-12 condenser won't cut it with 134a's full potential, the parallel flow condenser I mentioned before is the missing link. I found the universal one but still looking for an actual fit for the EF if it's even out there. if it's not I'm gonna try to find a way to connect the universal one to the lines.
I suggest to try that first then decide if you're going to switch back to R-12...that's what I would do if it were me.
check out the pic and look at every detail and imagine it under extreme pressure:
http://www.ackits.com/parallel/condenser1.jpg
Modified by steeltoe at 11:00 PM 7/21/2008
I noticed that too about the top line on the condenser. When I was trying to source a good condenser for mine from the junkyard I noticed on every single car I checked out that that fitting was loose. I'm assuming it gets worked loose by radiator movement (whether by getting work done and just from movement over the years).
Modified by James89DX at 5:15 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
is that the condenser you're using now? if not what condenser are you using? the r-12 condenser won't cut it with 134a's full potential, the parallel flow condenser I mentioned before is the missing link. I found the universal one but still looking for an actual fit for the EF if it's even out there. if it's not I'm gonna try to find a way to connect the universal one to the lines.
I suggest to try that first then decide if you're going to switch back to R-12...that's what I would do if it were me.
check out the pic and look at every detail and imagine it under extreme pressure:
http://www.ackits.com/parallel/condenser1.jpg
Modified by steeltoe at 11:00 PM 7/21/2008
07-22-2008, 12:26 AM
#31
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Re: (steeltoe)
i've converted to R134a 2+ years ago and all is well.
b16 swap
old pipings(except the compressor's hot and cold pipes, fab'd to fit) + oem condenser.
brand new evaporator, dryer, compressor, all non-OEM pieces, Korean made units except for the expansion valve which i pulled out from my old OEM evap piece. it lasted for exactly 2 years.
just three months ago, my compressor died on me. i guess due to beating it hardly taking it to 7k rpms sometimes while a/c is on( though CROME deactivates it at 5krpms). when we pulled out the system, i noticed that the refrigerant oil was contaminated(light to dark gray color)more like aluminum stuff off of the compressor internals going into lose compression mode. smells like aluminum too mixed with the refrigerant oil.
luckily i found an excellent but used Denso compressor(fits nicely like stock on the B16 OEM compressor bracket) which i now used for the last 2 months. worried about the system's contamination, i then replaced the evap, exp. valve, dryer (same Korean made pieces) along with the used Denso compressor... still with my 17 year old OEM condenser and pipings. now i seldomely take it to fan #4 once the entire car's cabin is cold(usually it stays on #1 fan with a/c on). i usually turn on the a/c switch after 5-10 minutes the first time "fan on only" set at #4.
i'm no a/c technician so i always take my car to a good friend who does car a/c's for a living all day/night work for the last 15+ years. i can rebuild engines, tune cars, mech'l, electrical(did lots of obd1 harness conversions as part time job), electronic stuff(chip ecu's) but i hate fixing my a/c.
my conclusion here is that, the old R12 system has to be completely flushed out and cleaned to avoid contamination when switching to R134. if possible, use brand new R134 compatible units, compress, evap, new comp. to condenser hose, etc. old pipings and OEM condenser is all good.
luckily i was able to buy these brand new non-OEM pieces for cheap. same prices i had 2+ years ago. all in all i spent 261$(includes: evap, dryer, exp. valve, thermostat switch-remotely mounted outside the evap black box since it's non-oem, used Denso compressor(80$), fittings, o-rings on all pipe joints, 134a refrigerant and oil, labor cost) when i fixed my a/c 3 months ago. it's really so cold, at night times, you'll notice a thin layer of ice at the cold pipe joint, above the header, the dryer's site glass is as clear as water
btw, i leave in a hot country all year long. we usually reach 51+ deg celcius during summer so i can't leave without a/c. it ain't a car withOUT an a/c, hehe.
my two EF's, both with a/c's, R134a, old pipings, OEM condenser.
one is Saudi Arabia:
one in Philippines:
Modified by ef92b at 12:49 PM 7/22/2008
b16 swap
old pipings(except the compressor's hot and cold pipes, fab'd to fit) + oem condenser.
brand new evaporator, dryer, compressor, all non-OEM pieces, Korean made units except for the expansion valve which i pulled out from my old OEM evap piece. it lasted for exactly 2 years.
just three months ago, my compressor died on me. i guess due to beating it hardly taking it to 7k rpms sometimes while a/c is on( though CROME deactivates it at 5krpms). when we pulled out the system, i noticed that the refrigerant oil was contaminated(light to dark gray color)more like aluminum stuff off of the compressor internals going into lose compression mode. smells like aluminum too mixed with the refrigerant oil.
luckily i found an excellent but used Denso compressor(fits nicely like stock on the B16 OEM compressor bracket) which i now used for the last 2 months. worried about the system's contamination, i then replaced the evap, exp. valve, dryer (same Korean made pieces) along with the used Denso compressor... still with my 17 year old OEM condenser and pipings. now i seldomely take it to fan #4 once the entire car's cabin is cold(usually it stays on #1 fan with a/c on). i usually turn on the a/c switch after 5-10 minutes the first time "fan on only" set at #4.
i'm no a/c technician so i always take my car to a good friend who does car a/c's for a living all day/night work for the last 15+ years. i can rebuild engines, tune cars, mech'l, electrical(did lots of obd1 harness conversions as part time job), electronic stuff(chip ecu's) but i hate fixing my a/c.
my conclusion here is that, the old R12 system has to be completely flushed out and cleaned to avoid contamination when switching to R134. if possible, use brand new R134 compatible units, compress, evap, new comp. to condenser hose, etc. old pipings and OEM condenser is all good.
luckily i was able to buy these brand new non-OEM pieces for cheap. same prices i had 2+ years ago. all in all i spent 261$(includes: evap, dryer, exp. valve, thermostat switch-remotely mounted outside the evap black box since it's non-oem, used Denso compressor(80$), fittings, o-rings on all pipe joints, 134a refrigerant and oil, labor cost) when i fixed my a/c 3 months ago. it's really so cold, at night times, you'll notice a thin layer of ice at the cold pipe joint, above the header, the dryer's site glass is as clear as water
btw, i leave in a hot country all year long. we usually reach 51+ deg celcius during summer so i can't leave without a/c. it ain't a car withOUT an a/c, hehe.
my two EF's, both with a/c's, R134a, old pipings, OEM condenser.
one is Saudi Arabia:
one in Philippines:
Modified by ef92b at 12:49 PM 7/22/2008
07-22-2008, 12:55 AM
#32
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What I learned when retrofitting my R12 system to R134 is you change the accumulator [recieve/dryer]. Change all the o-rings with the new r134 compatible o-rings. Change the fitting to R134. You would also use ESTER oil when you are retrofitting the AC system. Also lube the o-rings with ESTER oil.
The generial rule of thumb is 75-80% of R12 refrigerant that you would put into the system.
Everytime you open the AC system you are suppose to replace the accumulator [recieve/dryer].
First start by recovering the R12. Then go ahead and take it apart and change the o-rings and the accumulator. Replace the fittings with R134 fittings. Then put the system into a vaccum for atleast 30 minutes but the longer the better.
I had the machine to do all of this at the time. So I would recommend have a shop recover the R12. Bring it home and do your conversion. Bring it back have them put it into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside the system. Then you would either have the shop put the proper amount of R134 into the system with ester oil or I believe kragen/autozone sells recharge R134 kit with already all the oil needed and recharge it yourself. But you must have the shop put the system into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside.
So far mine is been blowing cold ever since. Alot better than my R12 system. When I used the refrigerant identifier I had 100% R12 and 0% air which was good but I never knew why it wasn't blowing as cold as it should, so I just went ahead and retrofitted to a R134.
The generial rule of thumb is 75-80% of R12 refrigerant that you would put into the system.
Everytime you open the AC system you are suppose to replace the accumulator [recieve/dryer].
First start by recovering the R12. Then go ahead and take it apart and change the o-rings and the accumulator. Replace the fittings with R134 fittings. Then put the system into a vaccum for atleast 30 minutes but the longer the better.
I had the machine to do all of this at the time. So I would recommend have a shop recover the R12. Bring it home and do your conversion. Bring it back have them put it into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside the system. Then you would either have the shop put the proper amount of R134 into the system with ester oil or I believe kragen/autozone sells recharge R134 kit with already all the oil needed and recharge it yourself. But you must have the shop put the system into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside.
So far mine is been blowing cold ever since. Alot better than my R12 system. When I used the refrigerant identifier I had 100% R12 and 0% air which was good but I never knew why it wasn't blowing as cold as it should, so I just went ahead and retrofitted to a R134.
07-22-2008, 01:12 AM
#33
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Re: (dc2doi)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dc2doi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bring it home and do your conversion. Bring it back have them put it into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside the system. Then you would either have the shop put the proper amount of R134 into the system with ester oil or I believe kragen/autozone sells recharge R134 kit with already all the oil needed and recharge it yourself. But you must have the shop put the system into a vaccum to suck out whatever air is left inside.
So far mine is been blowing cold ever since. Alot better than my R12 system. When I used the refrigerant identifier I had 100% R12 and 0% air which was good but I never knew why it wasn't blowing as cold as it should, so I just went ahead and retrofitted to a R134.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's exactly what i did with mine!
installed all the stuff at home, drove my car to my a/c tech and had him do the rest. YES, alooooooooot better better better than my R12 system
So far mine is been blowing cold ever since. Alot better than my R12 system. When I used the refrigerant identifier I had 100% R12 and 0% air which was good but I never knew why it wasn't blowing as cold as it should, so I just went ahead and retrofitted to a R134.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's exactly what i did with mine!
installed all the stuff at home, drove my car to my a/c tech and had him do the rest.
YES, alooooooooot better better better than my R12 system
07-22-2008, 07:45 AM
#34
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (steeltoe)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by steeltoe »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is that the condenser you're using now? if not what condenser are you using? the r-12 condenser won't cut it with 134a's full potential, the parallel flow condenser I mentioned before is the missing link. I found the universal one but still looking for an actual fit for the EF if it's even out there. if it's not I'm gonna try to find a way to connect the universal one to the lines.
I suggest to try that first then decide if you're going to switch back to R-12...that's what I would do if it were me.
check out the pic and look at every detail and imagine it under extreme pressure:
http://www.ackits.com/parallel/condenser1.jpg
Modified by steeltoe at 11:00 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I'm using a stock Honda condenser. I looked into universal condensers (I actually contacted a few companies about making me a custom one but none were interested) but just became stubborn. I mean, why should I go through all that trouble when I can go through the same amount of work and have a superior refrigerant?
Either way, I'm already on the home-stretch of going back to r12. No re-turning back now
Car as of five minutes ago:
is that the condenser you're using now? if not what condenser are you using? the r-12 condenser won't cut it with 134a's full potential, the parallel flow condenser I mentioned before is the missing link. I found the universal one but still looking for an actual fit for the EF if it's even out there. if it's not I'm gonna try to find a way to connect the universal one to the lines.
I suggest to try that first then decide if you're going to switch back to R-12...that's what I would do if it were me.
check out the pic and look at every detail and imagine it under extreme pressure:
http://www.ackits.com/parallel/condenser1.jpg
Modified by steeltoe at 11:00 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I'm using a stock Honda condenser. I looked into universal condensers (I actually contacted a few companies about making me a custom one but none were interested) but just became stubborn. I mean, why should I go through all that trouble when I can go through the same amount of work and have a superior refrigerant?
Either way, I'm already on the home-stretch of going back to r12. No re-turning back now
Car as of five minutes ago:
07-22-2008, 09:42 AM
#35
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (James89DX)
lol go for it...let us know how it turns out.
I just recieved my compressor and new drier from airpro and the drier has a sticker marked with XH 9 DESICCANT...this is 134a compatible...did your drier say it too?
a recap on part of my first post on this topic:
Desiccant and Driers/Accumulators:
The Receiver Dryer/Accumulator will serve the sane purpose in both systems, however the CFC-12 system uses a desiccant named XH-5 and is NOT compatibly with HFC134a. The HFC will actually eat the desiccant bag, releasing the desiccant pellets through the AC system, damaging other components. In the HFC134a system, you must use a XH7 or XH9 type desiccant, which is compatible with both CFC and HFC based refrigerants. As a side note, I believe all driers/accumulators being sold now are crossways compatible.
NOTE: As a good practice, the drier/accumulator should be replaced after any service to the A/C system required it to be open to the atmosphere for any length of time.
I just recieved my compressor and new drier from airpro and the drier has a sticker marked with XH 9 DESICCANT...this is 134a compatible...did your drier say it too?
a recap on part of my first post on this topic:
Desiccant and Driers/Accumulators:
The Receiver Dryer/Accumulator will serve the sane purpose in both systems, however the CFC-12 system uses a desiccant named XH-5 and is NOT compatibly with HFC134a. The HFC will actually eat the desiccant bag, releasing the desiccant pellets through the AC system, damaging other components. In the HFC134a system, you must use a XH7 or XH9 type desiccant, which is compatible with both CFC and HFC based refrigerants. As a side note, I believe all driers/accumulators being sold now are crossways compatible.
NOTE: As a good practice, the drier/accumulator should be replaced after any service to the A/C system required it to be open to the atmosphere for any length of time.
07-22-2008, 10:41 AM
#36
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (steeltoe)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by steeltoe »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As a side note, I believe all driers/accumulators being sold now are crossways compatible.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is accurate. 99.9% of all driers sold nowadays (unless they are NOS) are crossways compatible. Desiccant 7 and 9 should both be R134 compatible. XH 5, if memory serves, is the R12 only desiccant.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ef92b »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've converted to R134a 2+ years ago and all is well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Mine has been going almost ten years since an R134 conversion, and mine is still working adequately. I have an EG, and the system overall in the EG is a bit more efficient.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dc2doi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I learned when retrofitting my R12 system to R134 is you change the accumulator [recieve/dryer]. Change all the o-rings with the new r134 compatible o-rings. Change the fitting to R134. You would also use ESTER oil when you are retrofitting the AC system. Also lube the o-rings with ESTER oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The jury is still out on whether or not to lube the o-rings. I've had about 50% of techs tell me to lube them, and about 50% say not to.
The only real benefit I can see from lubing them is to not tear the ring during installation.
Of course, it won't HURT anything to lube them so I would agree with you here.
Why do you recommend ester oil when the compressor manufacturers specifically recommend the use of (usually) PAG 46 in their compressors? They even state that the use of any other lubrication will void the warranty. Especially regarding staying with an R134 system?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is accurate. 99.9% of all driers sold nowadays (unless they are NOS) are crossways compatible. Desiccant 7 and 9 should both be R134 compatible. XH 5, if memory serves, is the R12 only desiccant.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ef92b »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've converted to R134a 2+ years ago and all is well. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Mine has been going almost ten years since an R134 conversion, and mine is still working adequately. I have an EG, and the system overall in the EG is a bit more efficient.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dc2doi »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I learned when retrofitting my R12 system to R134 is you change the accumulator [recieve/dryer]. Change all the o-rings with the new r134 compatible o-rings. Change the fitting to R134. You would also use ESTER oil when you are retrofitting the AC system. Also lube the o-rings with ESTER oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The jury is still out on whether or not to lube the o-rings. I've had about 50% of techs tell me to lube them, and about 50% say not to.
The only real benefit I can see from lubing them is to not tear the ring during installation.
Of course, it won't HURT anything to lube them so I would agree with you here.
Why do you recommend ester oil when the compressor manufacturers specifically recommend the use of (usually) PAG 46 in their compressors? They even state that the use of any other lubrication will void the warranty. Especially regarding staying with an R134 system?
07-22-2008, 12:21 PM
#37
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (James89DX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by James89DX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Either way, I'm already on the home-stretch of going back to r12. No re-turning back now Car as of five minutes ago:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well since I already made up my mind that I was going to sell the airpro rebuilt sanden compressor as soon as it came in I'd like to give you first dibs on it before I start posting it for sale, that is if you're even interested in it. just came in today and it comes with the 90 day warranty with the original invoice included dated 7/17/08. it was $300 shipped for me I'll offer it to you for $245 shipped, you'll save $39..hey it's something...lmk
Either way, I'm already on the home-stretch of going back to r12. No re-turning back now
Car as of five minutes ago:</TD></TR></TABLE>
well since I already made up my mind that I was going to sell the airpro rebuilt sanden compressor as soon as it came in I'd like to give you first dibs on it before I start posting it for sale, that is if you're even interested in it. just came in today and it comes with the 90 day warranty with the original invoice included dated 7/17/08. it was $300 shipped for me I'll offer it to you for $245 shipped, you'll save $39..hey it's something...lmk
07-22-2008, 03:38 PM
#38
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Re: (James89DX)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by James89DX »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Air-Pro rebuilt his A/C lines. Yes there's pictures. I'll post them later on if you're interested. The new lines actually say 'r134a' on them.
I can't vouch for anyone else but both 90_si and I both put on new driers.
I also put a brand new evaporator on mine (that's actually the original cause of my A/C quest - my evaporator had thick tar-like stuff on it that would not clean off and I had absolutely no air blowing from the vents)
I noticed that too about the top line on the condenser. When I was trying to source a good condenser for mine from the junkyard I noticed on every single car I checked out that that fitting was loose. I'm assuming it gets worked loose by radiator movement (whether by getting work done and just from movement over the years).
Not sure I agree with you about the condenser fans. You'll notice most new cars that come factory with r134a have large pusher fans on the condensers. Manufacturers wouldn't do that unless it improved r134a cooling ability at idle.
*edit* Also, you said it blows 38 degrees at the center vent. Mine also blows about 40 at the center vent, at say, about 8 pm on a highway cruise. I live in Dallas. It looks like you're in California - so it's all relative. I would bet it's not quite as hot there and not nearly as humid. Does yours blow 38 degrees at the center vent sitting on the freeway in stopped traffic on a 100 degree day? That's my problem, sitting idle in 100 degree heat on a humid day. The r134a just doesn't cut it. It blows 80 degree air out of the center vent.
Modified by James89DX at 5:15 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am in cali and the humidity here probably isnt as bad as it is in Texas. I put that out there because you cant expect the air conditioner to do more than it is designed to. Pusher fans are less efficient than puller fans (known fact) Even fan clutches pull rather than push. Higher end German cars do use pushers, but then again, German engineering is on a different plane entirely. If you were to use a pusher fan(s) in addition to the pre-existing fan you may be able to lower the temps at idle in traffic. The problem is airflow, if the hot side of the air system cannot remove heat it will not work as efficiently on the cool side. BTW, the 38 degree measurement was at idle in the sun on a 90+ degree day. It took about 20 minutes with the windows up and the a/c on full blast, but you have to remember that the interior of the car has to cool off before the air temp at the vent will get its coldest. The temp measurement was taken as the compressor began to cycle on and off. The compressor should come on at about 47 degrees and go off at 40 degrees
Air-Pro rebuilt his A/C lines. Yes there's pictures. I'll post them later on if you're interested. The new lines actually say 'r134a' on them.
I can't vouch for anyone else but both 90_si and I both put on new driers.
I also put a brand new evaporator on mine (that's actually the original cause of my A/C quest - my evaporator had thick tar-like stuff on it that would not clean off and I had absolutely no air blowing from the vents)
I noticed that too about the top line on the condenser. When I was trying to source a good condenser for mine from the junkyard I noticed on every single car I checked out that that fitting was loose. I'm assuming it gets worked loose by radiator movement (whether by getting work done and just from movement over the years).
Not sure I agree with you about the condenser fans. You'll notice most new cars that come factory with r134a have large pusher fans on the condensers. Manufacturers wouldn't do that unless it improved r134a cooling ability at idle.
*edit* Also, you said it blows 38 degrees at the center vent. Mine also blows about 40 at the center vent, at say, about 8 pm on a highway cruise. I live in Dallas. It looks like you're in California - so it's all relative. I would bet it's not quite as hot there and not nearly as humid. Does yours blow 38 degrees at the center vent sitting on the freeway in stopped traffic on a 100 degree day? That's my problem, sitting idle in 100 degree heat on a humid day. The r134a just doesn't cut it. It blows 80 degree air out of the center vent.
Modified by James89DX at 5:15 PM 7/21/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am in cali and the humidity here probably isnt as bad as it is in Texas. I put that out there because you cant expect the air conditioner to do more than it is designed to. Pusher fans are less efficient than puller fans (known fact) Even fan clutches pull rather than push. Higher end German cars do use pushers, but then again, German engineering is on a different plane entirely. If you were to use a pusher fan(s) in addition to the pre-existing fan you may be able to lower the temps at idle in traffic. The problem is airflow, if the hot side of the air system cannot remove heat it will not work as efficiently on the cool side. BTW, the 38 degree measurement was at idle in the sun on a 90+ degree day. It took about 20 minutes with the windows up and the a/c on full blast, but you have to remember that the interior of the car has to cool off before the air temp at the vent will get its coldest. The temp measurement was taken as the compressor began to cycle on and off. The compressor should come on at about 47 degrees and go off at 40 degrees
05-26-2011, 12:50 PM
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Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
Your write-up is well done and much appreciated.
You seem to have all the equipment available at your disposal.
For a backyard mechanic, we must find a shop we can work with to discharge, flush and recharge.
Also, some shops will cut corners to offer a better rate which is why I would do everything I can at home.
For example, there isn't a shop in my area that rebuilds the hoses to my knowledge.
Where do i get hoses rebuilt?
You seem to have all the equipment available at your disposal.
For a backyard mechanic, we must find a shop we can work with to discharge, flush and recharge.
Also, some shops will cut corners to offer a better rate which is why I would do everything I can at home.
For example, there isn't a shop in my area that rebuilds the hoses to my knowledge.
Where do i get hoses rebuilt?
05-28-2011, 12:39 PM
#40
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Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
guys I have a sanden tr70 on my crx. when turning the compressor over by hand (not the clutch but the compressor shaft itself) how much resistance should be felt? mine has fairly little resistance when turning by hand. What is normal for this compressor?
06-23-2013, 07:07 PM
#43
Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
I have a stock 1990 Civic Si with a Matsushita compressor. My condenser had a leak so while waiting for parts (Condenser, dryer, O-rings) I disassembled the entire system. I cleaned the leaves out of the evaporator and flushed out everything except the compressor and the expansion valve. I think the next thing to do is drain all the oil out of the compressor so I can start with a known quantity (zero) and add the correct amount of PAG oil which I believe is 5 ounces.
The next question is which viscosity of PAG oil to use 46, 100 or 150. I see that Honda uses PAG 46 in all the compressors that were designed for R134a but after searching the web (see links I found below) I am being led to believe that in the Matsushita compressor made for R12 should use PAG 100 after converting to R134a. Does anyone here believe otherwise and if so why?
http://www.action-ac.com/AC-Part/41-05417.html
http://adair.com.au/tsb/TSB%2036%206...20Revision.pdf
The next question is which viscosity of PAG oil to use 46, 100 or 150. I see that Honda uses PAG 46 in all the compressors that were designed for R134a but after searching the web (see links I found below) I am being led to believe that in the Matsushita compressor made for R12 should use PAG 100 after converting to R134a. Does anyone here believe otherwise and if so why?
http://www.action-ac.com/AC-Part/41-05417.html
http://adair.com.au/tsb/TSB%2036%206...20Revision.pdf
07-06-2013, 12:08 PM
#44
Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
Compressor was bad. Got a rebuilt one for $180. Also replaced the expansion valve. So all told I spent $230 on tools (Harbor Freight and Craigslist) and $380 on parts. I took the whole system apart and flushed all the parts separately. Put it back together vacuumed it for 90 minutes put in 5 ounces of PAG 100 and somewhere between 24 and 30 ounces of R134a. It has been about a week so far and everything seems to be working just fine. A/C is working great it is about 90 today and very humid here in Northern Virginia and inside the car is very comfortable. I probably didn't need the condenser but that was only $50 and they are hard to flush so it was probably not a complete waste of money.
07-06-2013, 05:22 PM
#45
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
Compressor was bad. Got a rebuilt one for $180. Also replaced the expansion valve. So all told I spent $230 on tools (Harbor Freight and Craigslist) and $380 on parts. I took the whole system apart and flushed all the parts separately. Put it back together vacuumed it for 90 minutes put in 5 ounces of PAG 100 and somewhere between 24 and 30 ounces of R134a. It has been about a week so far and everything seems to be working just fine. A/C is working great it is about 90 today and very humid here in Northern Virginia and inside the car is very comfortable. I probably didn't need the condenser but that was only $50 and they are hard to flush so it was probably not a complete waste of money.
I live in the same region (near Fredericksburg) and after a few hours in the car today I realize how much I want to service my A/C.
07-07-2013, 12:43 PM
#46
Re: Proper R12 to R134a Conversion (Sanden)
I completed a replacement of evaporator/expansion valve (new OEM,) compressor (rebuilt Sanden from Ebay,) new suction hose (O'reilly's,) new discharge hose (O'reilly's,) new drier (Ebay,) new condenser (O'reilly's,) and all new o-rings.
I looked on craigslist for R-12 and easily found it for around $20/can. The place that rebuilt the Sanden said it contained the right amount of an R-12 compatible oil, so I took them at their word.
I flushed the old hard-lines, bolted everything together, then vac'd it for 30 minutes. I held vac with no leaks, for 2 hrs, so I charged it with 3 12 oz cans of R12. I realize that that seems like too much freon, but with loss from connecting/disconnecting the fittings and the fact that the weight of the can is probably added in, it came out fine.
When it is was 98 degrees out, today, I was blowing 33 degrees out of the center vent, with the recirc on. I only got about 42 degress with fresh-air on.
I looked on craigslist for R-12 and easily found it for around $20/can. The place that rebuilt the Sanden said it contained the right amount of an R-12 compatible oil, so I took them at their word.
I flushed the old hard-lines, bolted everything together, then vac'd it for 30 minutes. I held vac with no leaks, for 2 hrs, so I charged it with 3 12 oz cans of R12. I realize that that seems like too much freon, but with loss from connecting/disconnecting the fittings and the fact that the weight of the can is probably added in, it came out fine.
When it is was 98 degrees out, today, I was blowing 33 degrees out of the center vent, with the recirc on. I only got about 42 degress with fresh-air on.
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