MistahJuice

Alright guy I don't know if my two problems are related but I'm having a hard time pinpointing the source of my issues. I have a 95 Honda Civic Sedan With a GSR swap. For like 6 months now Ive had problems with it not wanting to start. Every now and then when I turn the key I simply get one click coming from the starter as though it's not getting enough power to start the car. Ths happens completely RANDOMLY, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the middle of the day when I'm leaving school, sometimes when I just parked hopped out for 5 min then hopped back in and tried to start it. I'd never done electrical so I just listened to my dads word and now I've got a new main relay, new starter, new ignition switch, new battery (+) power cable and still no help. I've wired up a push to start button for when it decides to give me one click and I've been dealing with it for the time being, but now that schools out I've decided to actually try and fix it. My batter seems fine giving a little over 12v when the cars off and a little over 14 with the car on. I'm getting the same voltage to the power cable on the starter with the nut on it, to be expected since the cable new.

Now here's the weird part. When I pull the starter wire off (the one that just slides in) and test it while turning the key I get about 11.7v. Fine that should be enough, but when I put the wire back on the starter and it's doing it's one click thing, I turn the key and I only get 5-6v depending on the day I guess lol. The wire itself seems to be carrying the power whether it's one clicking or starting, but when I plug it into the starter the power disappears somewhere. This is where I don't know what to test next. I've tried holding the black on the battery ground and testing various spots on the car (valve cover, trans, etc) and I get like 0.01v-0.03v, Yesterday I double grounded the transmission and valve cover grounds and it didn't mess with me all day, so this morning I pulled my second transmission to chassis ground off and started it like 5 times then it started doing with one click thing, so I put the ground back and it still wouldn't start. I then push button started it, let it run for a while, and now it's starting with the key again.



Now the second issue may or may not have anything to do with the starting problem, but I figured I tell you guys in case it helps someone figure out my issue. When I'm driving the car and I'm idling at a light or just idling not moving and I roll up the power window, push in the cigarette lighter, or something along those lines, the idle drops and the car kinda shudders. Not nearly enough to stall the car, even if I do them all at once, but it is noticeable and I doubt it should do that. I was thinking that could be an alternator problem but my battery is charging fine so I'm thinking my whole problem could be a bad ground or something, I don't know, any help would be much appreciated.

Former User

First problem -- Intermittent problems can be a bitch. Are you sure the one click comes from the starter solenoid? If not, you may want to test the ignition switch. Have you cleaned and tightened the battery ground wire attached to the chassis? How is the button that starts the engine reliably wired?

Second problem -- With the engine idling, measure voltage across the two battery posts with the high beams, rear window defroster, and A/C on Max.

MistahJuice

99.9% sure it's the starter clicking. Both myself and 2 friends confirmed this. Ignition switch is a brand new Beck and Arnley and it's doing the exact same thing. I have tightened and cleaned battery ground with scotch bright but that was in the beginning so I'll redo that. Also tightened and cleaned big 3 grounds chassis-trans vc- chassis and g101. The button is wired directly to battery 12v an other end into starter. I unplugged the regular wire that went to the starter and put my own in, it's kinda hard to explain but it is reliable. And the problem occurred before I did that


I'll do he idling test when I get home. At work now.

Former User

Test the starter cut relay and Ohm test the wires that run from the ignition switch to the relay and from the relay to the starter solenoid.

MistahJuice

Totally forgot I gotta fly out in the morning so I'll have to do the tests when I get back on sunday, feel free to keep giving advice though as I'm constantly thinking about this when I have spare time. But I don't have a starter cut relay, I converted the car from auto to manual using wiring guidance from this guide
http://www.hondacivicforum.com/forum...version-31774/

MistahJuice

So I did your test of the battery while the high beams, rear defroster, and blower was on (no air conditioning in my car) and got about 13.5, shot back up to 14.3 when I turned it all off. I ohm tested the wires and got around 46 so they seem to be ok, tested against a wire I had leftover from my alarm install. And no the alarm was installed 2 weeks ago and the problem was before it.

I started just testing random **** and when I tested the continuity between the negative battery terminal and the starter it was at about 62 then I started the car and it jumped to like 140 and slowly fell by about .1/second when I shut the car off again. Though the transmission ground wire itself ohm tested ok. Oh and I did a parasitic drain test and got .04 so I'm assuming that's ok. Thinkin about just making some new grounds and getting a new negative battery cable just to see if that helps but I don't really want to keep throwing money at it. New starter, ignition switch, and main relay was enough for now.

MistahJuice

bamp

Former User

This^ is probably the most important clue to solving your problem, if the button reliably cranks the engine but the ignition switch does not.

Describe exactly how the button is wired. Is it wired like below?

Battery ---> button ---> starter solenoid

Then compare for us how you have wired the ignition switch to deliver voltage to the starter solenoid.

The alternator voltage output under high load is possibly borderline. What voltage at idle do you measure across the battery posts with just high beams and max blower on?

The Ohm reading seems a bit high but what specific wires were tested?

Not sure what you mean here.

Ohm reading seems too high and inconsistent. What was the transmission ground Ohm reading?

MistahJuice

Working till 9 every day the rest of the week so I may not have time to retest stuff till saturday But I'll answer some questions while I can.

The button is wired as such: I unplugged the starter wires at the driver side firewall , put a cable between the black/yellow to make sure thats still connected, then ran my own wire from the black/white to the starter solenoid. That way the key would still start the car for testing purposes. I wired the button directly to the battery positive and spliced the other end into the wire i ran to the starter solenoid. This way i could use either the key or the button. The ignition switch itself is new so that shouldn't be the cause.

I tested the black/white ignition wire between the switch and the firewall, then the old wire going from the firewall to solenoid, and my new wire going from firewall to solenoid

I just meant that I test the ohms of a brand new wire I cut off of my alarm wire loom that seemed to be about the same gauge and got around 46, just in case my tester reads a little off


And I believe when I tested the transmission ground it tested the same as the others but I will retest this weekend.

Is there any other type of test I can do, I've read about voltage drop tests but not sure how to perform them or even i it would be helpful in this situation. Do you think perhaps a the transmission ground being corroded under the loom or something like that could be the cause but still give me an alright ohm reading.

Also how many volts should I be getting to the clutch switch. I currently have the switch bypassed for testing purposes but perhaps that could shed some light on the dilemma?

Former User

I struggle to follow how you rigged the button. I don't know what firewall plug or Blk/Yel wire you're referring to. Post pictures and sketch a schematic for me.

Here's what I think you're saying in schematic form. You have two circuits that converge at a splice point in the Blk/Wht wire to and near the starter solenoid.

+ battery post -> button -> Blk/Wht wire -> starter solenoid

ignition switch -> Blk/Wht wire -> (relay bypass) -> Blk/Red wire -> Blk/Wht wire -> starter solenoid

If this is correct, then the problem lies somewhere between the ignition switch and the splice point of the button circuit into the Blk/Wht wire.

The problem may be at the connector you seem to be unplugging at the firewall. Ohm test from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid without unplugging the firewall connector.

46 Ohms is too high. What multimeter are you using and on what settings?

At this point you seem to have a power not a ground problem.

The voltage at the switch should be nearly identical to the voltage measured across the two battery posts.

MistahJuice

Here you go, quick video on my push to start button and one test. I've come to realize my $40 tester from oreillys is actually a piece of **** and it changes its readings every other time I turn it on but this seems to be the standard resistance in the video:
http://youtu.be/XE1NN0HSoXA
the first day i tested it i got 13.9hm at the clutch switch wires, but since I realized I can't be sure how accurately the tester was reading at that point and I don't feel like going back into my center optional center console with its 10 screws and 4 bolts to test it again. Though it gave me about 12.1 volts when I tested the clutch switch wires. How Most other wires gave me 17.5 volts, as shown in the video I was testing the oem wire going from shock tower to solenoid. My new wire set up also gave me about the same readings, maybe 17.7 or so. Now what was strange was when I tested that wire going into the car it instead of going to the starter it gave me that 46ohm again. So the problem may be between the spot where the ignition switch plugs in, and where it stops at the shock tower, so that may be my next test. I'll probably go about depining that wire and putting my own in to see if this solves the problem in a day or two once the issue returns since it always does, unless you think it would be unwise.


Lastly I hadn't driven the car in 3 days and now it's working a lot better. Started up every time fro 2 days and yesterday it made the click twice, once in the early evening and once at night, but all I had to do was turn the key back to off then attempt to start it again and it worked so this problem seems to go away for a while when I don't continuously start the car on a daily basis.

MistahJuice

Retested the wire going in between with an older but mOre reliable tester and it's fine now. This tester gives me 11ohms on the wires. Car just started acting up after my last test. Getting half as much volts to starter when the wire is attached but every wire gets about the same voltage as the battery when not connected to the starter. Also an update in case this is important. I was removing the transmission ground and my friend left the key in the on position. As I touched the ground back to the transmission it actually sparked at me. Not sure if this may be a symptom of the problem or not

MistahJuice

Any new insights?

Former User

More background information is needed. In your video, I see that one probe touches the starter solenoid wire but I don't know what wire your other probe is touching near the clutch fluid reservoir. And is everything plugged in for the test? Is the key on or off?

This voltage is abnormally high. What voltage do you read across the two battery posts with the engine on versus off?

You need to clearly describe what wires are being Ohm tested.

Please provide enough information for these tests to be understandable.

MistahJuice

I'm sorry I meant 17.5 ohms as shown in the video.
I'll try to explain some of this as thoroughly as I can.
[Ignition switch wires>shock tower wires>*disconnect here and run my own wire instead of the stock solenoid wire*> Starter wire from shock tower and push button starter wire spliced together> starter solenoid] But none of this should matter because the problem persists whether I plug in the oem wire or not.

Now when the starter solenoid simply makes its one click instead of starting the only differences I've been able to find is that all the wires get full 12 voltage. The clutch switch wires, the ignition switch wires, my wires I have hooked up etc. UNTIL I plug it into the Starter solenoid. Then it drops to about 6 volts. For some reason The starter seems to be leaking power somewhere. BUT it will still turn over with the push button so it just confuses the **** outta me lol.


And as for the test I ohm tested my wire I ran from the shock tower to the starter, and the old wire that runs from there to the starter an they both tested the same. I also tested the opposite end of that shock tower wire going into the car and up to the ignition switch. And I ohm tested the wires coming from the clutch switch. I need a more reliable tester though because the readings keep coming up differently.

Former User

My ability to help you depends on (1) clear and concise answers to questions, (2) a clear description of the modified starter solenoid circuit with colors of wires, and (3) mention of any wire colors that you are probing for voltage or resistance.

For (1):
Place each of my questions in quotes and then provide answers to them point by point.

For (2):
Draw a circuit diagram that illustrates your modified wiring from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid.

Here's how the original circuit looked before it was modified:

MistahJuice

Alright I'm working now but I may have fixed the problem. Hasn't acted up all day so fingers crossed at the moment. I replaced the wires going into the clutch switch since they were consistently giving me high ohm readings even with my crappy multimeter so I traced it back, depinned it, an replaced the whole wire and so far so good