CarbonEG43

Hey guys just got a quick question. I was planning running a AEM EMS V2 on my fully built B16A2 that is going into my 93' Civic EG hatchback. I wanted to run OBD2 instead of OBD1 so what would be required to do this since this is going into an OBD1 platform car? Could I just run the 2000 civic SI wire harness and plug and play most of it or what would have to be hacked? Any information is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

THC07

I have to ask, why would you want to run obd2 over obd1?

CarbonEG43

I'd feel like with OBD2 the car could learn on its own more than OBD1. I know there is more tuneability when it comes to OBD1 but since I was gunna run the standalone I thought it might not matter and light be simpler. Unless it wouldn't really matter in the first place since there's a standalone in place of the ECU?

beecee18

someone correct me if im wrong but..
The AEM EMS is its own propeitry management system, and will not contain the
OBD2 protocol nor the wiring/connector for the DLC. So wiring for OBD2 would be useless in your situation.
As 96-2000 ecu's have no tuning capability through the ECU

doood

iTrader: (1)

correct. unless things have changed recently.

CarbonEG43

Ahh I see now. I did not notice that till now. Well looks like il be sticking to OBD1 then! Thanks a lot for the info guys!

CarbonEG43

Okay I got one more question. If I bought it the AEM EMS with the OBD2 connector would it even support the certain sensors like the crank position sensor or would it just be the same as staying OBD1 since it is its own management system?

THC07

you don't need to spend money on engine management. i dout your fully built B series is gonna make nearly enough power that you even need a ems.

Its alll gonna be wasted money.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Get an OBD1 ECU chipped and basemapped. Especially if it's going into a 5th gen.

CarbonEG43

Yeah thats what I was thinking. I'm just gunna run Hondata s300 then. My buddy who's helping me build threw out the idea of getting an AEM EMS and I had a feeling it was over kill but thought I'd ask anyway.

THC07

s300 is over kill also, why spend 500 when you can spend 150 on eCtune or Crome, not sure how much Neptune is but screw Hondata, bad company, dont support.

CarbonEG43

Well for the money and parts I've put into this build I'd want something that I can depend on for engine management. That's why I've came here so thanks for the input I will look into it more

Julio@Bisimoto

Thought I would chime in being there is a lot of miss information being thrown around.

When building any setup, whether is being a lightly modified street car setup or a competitive race vehicle an engine management system by far is the most important investment.

You must consider the ECU/EMS is the one item controlling all your engines parameters, fuel and ignition maps to allow for proper tune to not only achieve performance, but as well drivability and even fuel economy.

Regarding your question between OBD1 and OBD2, an AEM EMS is a stand alone engine management system that have the same capability for all applications. The system internally are the same, however AEM just make it simple for the community by offering plug and play EMS's to match your vehicles ecu plugs for easy installation with out wiring modifications.

Another thing to take into consideration, with an AEM EMS system the software and hardware capability far exceeds that of any factory OBD-1 ecu program/modification. OBD-1 ecu's have become old technology with the last year manufactured being 1995, leaving them anywhere from 18-22 years old. If you look at any other technology based electronics (cell phones, computers, television, ect) even after only 1 year or less they have been outdated with only a fraction of capability of newer systems.

Not to mention all the additional features the AEM EMS system has to offer that will benefit a mild setup, as well more advance features for race applications. With such features as on board datalogging, capability to run a true coil on plug system, several addition inputs and outputs for monitoring and controlling other functions, UEGO (wideband) close loop parameters and much much more.

If you are truly "fully building" your B16, I recommend even more so to invest on a AEM to properly tune your setup. No point of investing your hard earned money on a built engine build and risk hurting it with a chipped ecu.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Please point out the misinformation.

THC07

Where?

hes "fully building" a B series. again thats a B Series; Thats what... 18-22 years old?

Please give me an example of this EMS out preforming the 18-22 years of experienced obd1 technology and coding. Ease of wiring?
do you think hes talking about a 800 hp B series?

THC07

Depend on your tuner! Absolutely the most important aspect is the tuner.
Im glad you came to HT for advice.

CarbonEG43

Thanks you for that info Julio! And yes the tuner is very important key but knowing which engine management system they are best or most familiar is important too. My particlar tuner knows the AEM standalone very well so that's why I was questioning about running it. But there are also a lot of other shops in the Chicagoland area including Suja 1, I'll garage, etc... That are great with Hondata, chrome, Neptune, and those programs. But I see where you guys are both coming from. I will prob end up going with Hondata tho cause it seems to be the best bang for you buck and is also user friendly. I did hear Neptune is a great program too for the price tho soooooooo idk

CarbonEG43

I should mention that I'm only shooting for 350 - 400WHP. Everything but the sleeves is pretty much new or better and stronger. I just wanted to make a fun *** car that is also reliable so I like all my parts to be qualitly and not cheap **** lol. I'm making a build thread soon so stay tuned

Julio@Bisimoto

Gladly

Worst idea for any engine, a chipped ecu with a "base map" is nothing but a predetermined program tuned for who know what. This can be very dangerous to any engine, even a 100% factory stock engine.

No way of knowing where ignition timing is at different engine loads, as well fuel mapping which can be dangerously lean or wastefully rich through out the entire rpm range. With no regards to any partial throttle tuning specific to the engine setup it is trying to run...

To give an example, we have yet to see a chipped ECU with a "base map" at any of our dyno days that have a safe AFR's.


Does not matter if you are making 90whp or 1000+whp. Engine management systems allow for tuning of the engine, superior system have more resolution (just like resolution of an LCD TV, ex 720p vs 1080p) for mapping both on ignition and fuel. Meaning it will allow for additional increments of both rpm and load to tune, gaining better drivability as well power through out the entire RPM.





OBD-1 ecu's them selves are anywhere from 18-22 years old. Have you compared software between and AEM system vs any coding modification software for a factory OBD-1 ECU. If you have and actually know what you are looking at, you would not bring it up.

Example of out performing EMS vs factory ECU.

NASA Honda Road Race Challenge vehicles are limited by the rules to run factory stock engines to allow racers on limited budget to race competitively without breaking the bank.

#1 choice of the winning racers is AEM EMS Series 2 to extract the most power out of their setup, as well give opportunity for more refined tuning in partial throttle tuning, gaining them more constant throttle response in an out of turns.

Over Kill? When has anything in the would is both good and cheap?

Your welcome, If you need assistance with anything I can help you feel free to PM me. I do also agree that your tuner of choice does need to know how to properly tune the engine management system of your choice.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

There it is! So he can offer you his services or even sell you an AEM EMS. That's what his "assistance" boils down to. I was waiting for that.

Many people have done pretty well with a basemap, free solutions (that's right! FREE!!!) like CROME and commercial units like Neptune or Hondata without having to go all-out for a system like the AEM unit that is just that, overkill. I don't recall that the OP said he was going to be doing any heavy activities like drag racing so I never understand when people try to use such extreme examples like that to make their point. All he said was "fully built" which could mean just about anything. I've seen people use that term to describe their engines that only have I/H/E and maybe an intake. Don't know how you can recommend anything like an AEM without knowing all the details of the "build".

Don't ever trust a salesman. They lie for a living.

Julio@Bisimoto

If you take the time to truly study and understand engine management systems as well tuning you would not be arguing this situation. Not to mention , your entire bases of arguing is around what you have seen on the forums and not from you yourself actually using and testing a performance part yourself.

And as I stated it does not matter what modifications are done to an engine, it is always a worth while investment to invest on a system more capable than another sub par system. We have had 100% factory stock Honda S2000's come in for tuning with an AEM EMS and leave with addition horse power, drivability and even better fuel economy. There is no arguing that with a proper engine management system and tuning, far more can be done for your project.

And by the way, I have been running AEM systems in my own project vehicles way before I came on board at Bisimoto Engineering. I would not offer advice nor support for a race product unless I know for myself it is worth investing on.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

You don't know what I use nor what I have experience with. Hondata and Neptune are sub-par? Is that what you're saying? Even though CROME is no longer being developed people are still managing to tune people's rigs pretty well on it.

So I guess someone should go out and spend more than a grand on an EMS just to tune something like an I/H/E setup? I mean, that is what you just said isn't it? "...as I stated it does not matter what modifications are done to an engine".
"Bases"? Maybe basis is the word you're looking for.

Ultimately this answer
was the best one.

Regardless, the OP has already made his decision.

beecee18

I beleive factory tuned vehicles from honda are sufficient for un-modded vehicles.
Let alone the AEM EMS is for off-road vehicles only not containing the OBD protocols, or the diagnostic capability of factory ECU (Not like hondas is any good anyhow) I just dont see the need for AEM EMS unless its a race car or weekend warrior. There are factory ECU tuning options for these cars that are sufficient for most of these N/A B-series applications that can still retain the safety features that the factory utilized.

Although I am interested in the difference between the resolution of the timing and fuel maps of the AEM unit compared to that of a stock OBD1 ECU. And would like to see proof of this so called difference of resolution making an increase in power output for the OP"s situation.

And Hondatas flash unit would have sufficed for you making power on that S2000.
And of course you made more power than factory after the tune. Is it as reliable, guarded by corrections, and less liable to knock?

No

Julio@Bisimoto

Just to repeat myself, yes any system that is used to program a 18-22 year old hardware is sub-par. You are compare a system develop by performance minding engineers from the ground up specifically to tune an engine with superior control and features to insure the best of drivability and performance.

And yes I do agree it would be best to invest on an AEM system even if it is to tune for a stock engine with only bolt on's if within your budget. The NASA road race guys and hundreds of others world wide do every day, because they want the best for their performance vehicle.

I do understand it is not in everyone's budget, however why would you deter a person who was planning to run an AEM EMS and was not asking for opinions on other system. That is why I chimed in to answer his question.

THC07

I dont have the energy to argue with arrogance right now. Cant fix stupid!
maybe later ill quote and discredit everything you said. Sounds like a morning thing with a fresh cup of coffee.