BlitzSix

I feel like kind of an idiot... I just had some Russel stainless steel lines laying around that I got for free, so I thought I would put them on. I already did the back another time a few months ago. I've bled brakes a few times, I know how to do it. But this time something isn't working. I replaced the front lines and now when I try to bleed them they just won't get bled.

More and more air keeps coming out. I went through a whole bottle of fluid and it's still coming out, and not getting less or anything either. I mean there must be a way for the air to be getting in but the brake line is like two bolts so what can I really have messed up? I made sure everything is tight. Nothing is leaking.

When I bled the rears they're fine, but when I do the fronts they just hiss as the brake pedal is being released and then there's bubbles after.

Any ideas ?

Oh it's a 99 DX if it matters.

BlitzSix

Bump - want to fix this tomorrow if possible. TIA.

gen_x_dad

Perhaps the fittings weren't the right one for your vehicles?

How are you bleeding them? On your own with a vacuum or pressure bleeder, or with someone helping you pump the pedal while you operate the bleeder screw?

Also, where is the hissing coming from that you describe? From a fitting on one or both of the front stainless lines?

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that the hissing is air being sucked back or blown out of the line. At work when we replace fuel and brake lines and use the make-your-own kits, sometimes the double flare flanges you make aren't exactly perfect so you really have to wrench down on the flare nut to make it seat properly. Normally this happens for the fittings at the proportioning valve but it has happened at the line ends where they joint to the flex line.

I'd go back and ensure all your fittings and connections are rock-solid and tight.

BlitzSix

Thanks for the help.. sorry I didn't realize my post wasn't clear, but the hissing is coming from the bleeder valve while it's open. I am doing it with a friend.. I open the valve, my friend pumps a bunch of times, and then when there are no more bubbles my friend would hold the pedal downand i would tighten the valve.

but what happens is like this... I open the valve, friend pushes brake, a little air bubbles come oout and then a good stream of fluid, then as the brakes are being released there is a slight noise, the hissing noise.. and then whent he pedal is pushed again there is some air.

I guess I will double check the fittings, but I thought they were pretty tight.

whitetoy

You do close the valve, right before your friend releases the brake pedal, right?

BlitzSix

yes on the final pump for that bleeder. so i would open it, friend would pump it a few times, hold it down on the last one until i close it and tell him to let go.

correct or no ?

gen_x_dad

I think you might be bleeding improperly. This is how we do it at work:

1. **OPTIONAL BUT HIGHLY RECOMMENDED** Place a piece of 2x4 on the floor up behind where the brake pedal would hit, or have your friend put his foot there. This ensures the pedal can go about 3/4 of it's travel but won't go all the way to the floor which in some cases can damage the master cylinder.
2. With the bleeder screw fully closed/tight, top up the reservoir and have your friend pump the brake pedal 3-5 times.
3. Say to him UP so he knows you want him to release the pedal and have him reply back UP so you know he has released it (sounds silly but it ensures no problems or mistakes during the bleeding process...20+yr techs do this with me at the shop so I know it works ).
4. Open the bleeder screw about a half turn, then tell your friend DOWN at which point he is to push the pedal down with slow but steady foot pressure
5. When he has reached the stop block or his foot, he is to reply back to you DOWN and keep the pedal in the down position
6. Close the bleeder screw
7. Repeat steps 3-6 until no more air comes out of the bleeder. Top up the reservoir as needed to ensure it is always at least half full and doesn't go below the MIN mark.

You were leaving the bleeder screw open while your friend was pumping the pedal, in which case it would pull air back into the system and force you to start all over again. Just remember, you want the screw CLOSED when he's pumping/releasing/released the pedal and THE ONLY TIME you want the screw open is when he's pressing down on the pedal.

Good luck man

Koopa Troopa

That makes no sense. Why would you open the bleeder valve without hydraulic pressure in the system? Your work place needs to seriously re-evaluate how you bleed hydraulic systems.


I'll make what he typed correct and easy.

Always start at the caliper furthest away from the master cylinder. If it's a left hand drive car then you would start with the rear right. Make sure to keep an eye on your fluid levels in the master cylinder.

1) Ensure master cylinder is full
2) Have your friend pump the brake pedal until it he can't pump any more, usually it takes about 5 or 10 pumps.
3) After he has pumped till pressure is built he holds the pedal in the down position.
4) Open the bleeder valve
5) Close the bleeder valve
6) Repeat steps 2 - 5 until you no longer see air bubbles
7) Move to the next wheel.
8) Repeat steps 2 - 6
9) Move to next wheel
10) Repeat steps 2 - 6
11) Move to next wheel
12) Repeat steps 2 - 6

Make sure you have a friend who is reliable and communication is key. Usually we just have the guy pumping shout something to let the guy under the car know he's holding the pedal. Giving the signal that he can open the bleeder valve. When the pumping guy can pump again is indicated from a command by the guy under the car.

Until that command is given then pumping guy WILL NOT let go of that pedal.

Oh and make sure you have one of these.

bsmith100

Exactly!

gen_x_dad

Well I guess I'm out of my league here then. My sincerest apologies for not wording that step in a different manner.

And how have you made my post easier? All you have done is gone into greater depth and re-phrased what I said. The essentials are the same...open the bleeder when the pedal is going down, close it and keep it closed when it is held down and going back up. Ensure clear communication between yourself and your helper so you know what means what. What the OP was doing was keeping it open when the pedal was being pumped so your way or my way is going to fare him the same and better results than what he was doing previously.

I have been bleeding brakes for several years or so thanks and the way I have done it from what I was shown by many well experienced techs has always worked 100% each and every time. I have bled brakes for myself and friends for track days and had zero complaints or issues. Pumping the pedal a bunch of times each and every time before you open the bleeder screw has never been necessary and I've normally seen it done at the very start of each wheel bleed and that's it. If you aren't supposed to open the bleeder without pressure in the system, then what is the point of gravity bleeding? When I have opened the bleeder screw with the pedal up just as I'm calling out to have them press down, fluid actually comes pouring out and then the spray follows when the pedal is pressed. Clutched and brakes have been bled with 100% positive results each and every time so I guess I must be doing something correct.

Furthermore, farthest-to-closest does apply but he is best to consult the manufacturer's recommendations for the correct procedure, especially when diagonal split systems follow different routes. The typical RR, LF, LR, RF applies to many Honda models and year ranges but there are some year models in the Civic, Accord and CRV year range which follow a different sequence, some going the opposite of the above and others going in a clockwise direction.

Thank-you for your opinion on our dealership's processes, but we are fine and don't need to re-evaluate anything. There's a reason we have such high ratings among Canadian dealers for customer service, loyalty and overall sales AND service satisfaction, and it isn't because we don't know how to do things right or need to "re-evaluate" things.

P.S. He doesn't NEED that bottle setup either. Any clear tubing commerically available from NAPA or other auto parts stores that securely attach to the bleeder screw and direct expelled fluid into an appropriate catch pan does just fine. When you're on the clock and customers are waiting, you use what works that gets the job done right without wasting time.

gen_x_dad

And before I start getting ripped apart from all sides for my retort, just to clarify I am not a keyboard technician nor am I a kid sitting in his room typing away with impunity. I'm a 35-yr old split-parent who works for Honda on Hondas for a living to put a roof over my head and food on the table for my daughter and I. I am a nationally licensed red seal AST tech, an honours graduate of the Honda program in Toronto who was second highest overall in his class. I very much enjoy getting up in the morning and doing this for a living. I am in no way saying I am right and everyone else is wrong because you can bet for damn sure I do make my share of mistake, but that's how I learn from them and I learn from them well.

And I am sorry if it seems like I'm getting butthurt here but if you knew the bullshit and heartache I went through to get where I am today, you'd understand why your response struck a nerve with me. I was only trying to help the OP and I take GREAT pride in my work ethic, the quality of my work and attention to detail I provide my customers. If I worded something off then I did so in error, but bleeding brakes and servicing and other repairs of this nature are now automatic to me and while I don't always explain it right, I can assure you I know what I'm doing and so do the rest of us here where I work.

With that being said, I'm putting on my Nomex suit now...

Koopa Troopa

If you don't pump the brake pedal before you open the bleeder valve then there is no pressure behind the air in the system making the process take longer.. In your case, making customers pay more because a 15 minute bleed job just took 45 or more.

As far as starting from the furthest point from the master cylinder... This is the EG Civic/ Ek Civic forum.. I couldn't care less what point you start at with a CR-V or Accord.

gen_x_dad

thank you for the physics lesson.

Again have you ever heard of GRAVITY BLEEDING??? A lot of air will come out of the system on it's own without any pressure acting on it. I ask politely...how much pressure do you think you need to push air out of the brake line? Also, do you know how much pressure is behind just ONE full travel pump of the pedal? And if you AREN'T bleeding empty lines but rather just replacing a component or bleeding some air out of already full lines, pumping it up 5-10 times every single time before you open the bleeder screw is like pedaling a bike going downhill at near top speed.

Yes I admit I worded myself wrong and I apologized. It is best to time the opening of the bleeder with the downward push of the pedal but as for it taking 45 minutes or more? I am willing to bet any tech I've ever helped could EASILY bleed all four wheels in fifteen minutes (maybe even less if they hustled a bit) and the only time they would pump the pedal would be for the initial opening of the bleeder at each wheel, then at the end to see if it was high and firm.

We have replaced rear brake lines on many EF, EG and EK Civics, not to mention countless Accords, CRV's and Odysseys (at one point we were doing a vehicle each of us each day for a whole week). Whether I am the one operating the bleeder or if I'm the pedal guy, starting with NEW COMPLETELY EMPTY LINES which go all the way from the M/C to the back calipers or wheel cylinders, it takes maybe 10 minutes or so AT THE MOST to bleed them properly, and that's IF you haven't let them gravity bleed while you clean up and wait for a helper.

As for the customer "paying more", I have bled ALL FOUR wheels or TWO NEW EMPTY LINES FROM FRONT TO BACK in WELL under the time the flat rate manual gives you for the job, so based on your argument, the customer hasn't paid any more for the same job and still gets their car in under the allotted time.

And while you may not care about other models because of what forum this is, there IS a specific process to bleed brakes according to Honda and the OP should be informed as to that effect OR to consult a tech or a manual for the right one, not simply told FARTHEST TO CLOSEST.

I was trying to be nice and help him. If you are going to pick apart my help to him, please bring better arguments to the table, back it up with real world shop experience and please leave the pompous overtones out of things.

shawn_crx

See what u had done Blitzsix... you started a war... Your brake better work... lol

gen_x_dad

LOL Im sure he's fine whichever method he uses .

And I'm over it so no worries .

gen_x_dad

To quell this argument and show there are no hard feelings on my part, I am providing to you Blitz the page right from the 1999 Civic manual (I'm at work on lunch break and attached it for you). Sorry it's not the clearest but if you need anything clarified, I'd be happy to do so.

The bleed sequence for your '99 DX Blitz is as follows:

1. RIGHT REAR
2. LEFT FRONT
3. LEFT REAR
4. RIGHT FRONT

Again, if you choose to pump the pedal several times before each time you open the bleeder screw, that is okay. It's not absolutely necessary but it's not wrong either. If you simply open the bleeder when the pedal is being pressed or just as it's being pressed, you will be okay as that too is not wrong. Either method works and you will find what works best and easiest for you.

Also, the tube in the picture would simply go to an empty catch can or pan, where the fluid is to be recycled or disposed of in accordance with local regulations.

Hope this helps Blitz and let me know how you make out