D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
09-24-2015, 03:24 PM
#51
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
You're talking about mixing pressed pin (OEM) parts with floating pin (aftermarket) parts. It doesn't work that way. You either need to go aftermarket pistons and rods, or stick to OEM pistons and rods. There are machinists out there that can work them over to make them match, but the cost isn't worth the savings. As far as you should be concerned, it's all or nothing. Supertech pistons are very reasonable. Check them out if you're interested in going that direction. Vitara builds are every broke kid's go-to. Don't waste your time with it.
The head is fine stock, to a point. Upgrading the valvetrain is less about making more power, and making power better. Bisimoto is a clown. There are much better people to give your money to, who will give you much better results. Springs and retainers aren't about RPM, they're about how aggressive the cam are - bigger, more aggressive cams require stronger springs, simple as that.
The head is fine stock, to a point. Upgrading the valvetrain is less about making more power, and making power better. Bisimoto is a clown. There are much better people to give your money to, who will give you much better results. Springs and retainers aren't about RPM, they're about how aggressive the cam are - bigger, more aggressive cams require stronger springs, simple as that.
09-24-2015, 08:00 PM
#57
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
06-04-2009
OBX LSD
Precision SC6262
Double digit torque
"Compression should still be ~8.5:1."
Doesn't make power until 6000 RPM.
Are you saying I'm wrong, or are you helping me argue my point? I can't tell.
OBX LSD
Precision SC6262
Double digit torque
"Compression should still be ~8.5:1."
Doesn't make power until 6000 RPM.
Are you saying I'm wrong, or are you helping me argue my point? I can't tell.
09-24-2015, 08:45 PM
#58
Steve at Heart
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
Are you referring to the first page or page 4?
6k rpm on a d series isn't bad when 280+ tq and over 400-500 hp
https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct.../#post39081320
6k rpm on a d series isn't bad when 280+ tq and over 400-500 hp
https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct.../#post39081320
09-24-2015, 11:21 PM
#59
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
It's really too bad you're stuck in the 90's, and it's too bad you've decided to latch onto one crappy example. I was hoping you would realize that I know what I'm talking about, or at the very least, go ask in FI and realize that I'm right. Instead, you're still latching onto this one poor example, so sit down - it's story time.
First off, let's talk about what happens when you lower (or raise) your compression ratio. A higher compression ratio means more heat before your ignition event (spark). Fuel is meant to react to spark in the engine, but it can also react to that heat. When it reacts to heat, that's called "pre-ignition", or detonation, which can shatter sleeves, burn ring lands, snap rods, and crush bearings. That's why we have different octane ratings at the gas station - a basic grocery getter with a 9:1 CR can operate just fine on 87, but that hopped up F20C with an 11.5:1 CR requires 91/93. Feed it 87, and you get detonation. Do it for too long, and your S2000 is now a rolling shell, dead on the side of the highway. That's just static compression ratios. When you add boost into the equation, you're drastically increasing what's called your dynamic compression ratio. To use a stock B18B1 engine as an example, the stock static CR is 9.6:1. When you add 10 PSI, that gets you roughly 16:1 dynamic CR.
Now, a brief 101 into how engines and turbos work. Engines are glorified air pumps. With higher compression, you get a better powerband. More torque, and more power, even without a turbo. Turbos are also air pumps. The turbo pumps more air into the motor than the motor can suck in by itself, thus making more power. Catch 22, though, is that the turbo defines your max power, while your engine defines your powerband. Turbo X will max out at BHP Y regardless of what motor you put it on. For example, when Garrett rates the GTX3076R for 360-640 HP, that means 640 HP total. Put it on a 97 HP D series, or a 400 HP built V8, and you'll still max out at 640 HP on the dyno.
Why do either of those things matter? Detonation threshold. Better fuels have a higher detonation threshold, meaning you can push the engine closer to the proverbial breaking point before you get detonation that ruins your engine. If you have two engines with the same power goals, and the only difference is the static CR, then the higher static CR engine will also have a higher dynamic CR at max power, which means you need better fuel, and a better tune.
One fourth bit of information to get a complete pictures is air/fuel ratios. AFRs need to be within a specific range - more fuel cools the burn, which creates less power, but lowers your detonation threshold. Less fuel creates a hotter burn and a stronger explosion, generating more power, but increasing your detonation threshold until it finally starts knocking.
Now that these basic facts are on the table, let's look at why low CR is ******* stupid.
Back in the 90's and early 00's (here forth referred to as "the dark ages"), import car fans had two tuning options available to them. Option one was to foot the bill for multiple thousands of dollars for standalone tuning options, then spend the time finding a mechanic competent enough to wire it all up, then find a tuner competent enough (and willing) to set up the system. Even after spending those thousands of dollars, and finding those people, the software was still limited in it's capabilities. Option two was the dumb **** called an FMU hack. Creating fuel pressure ramps to feed more gas under higher boost gave people what they thought was a little bit of control on their fueling, but it was ****, and it still is ****.
So, when given the option of spending thousands of dollars on tuning, or spending a couple hundred on an FMU hack, which route do you think the average person will go? FMU hack, every time, period, for all but the most hardcore, most professional cars. Hell, even a lot of the show cars that you would see at SEMA, and the hardcore cars you'd see on the race tracks, were using FMU hacks.
What does this mean, though? FMU hacks had no actual control. You switched around your ratios until you found one that "felt right", and you went with it. You had little control over your AFRs, and had to reach that point that you didn't blow up your engine. To make matters worse, no two cylinders are exactly the same, so you had to build for the lowest common denominator between the four.
Put this all together, and you get smart people running lower compression ratios and higher boost to make more power, safely.
Now that we have facts and history covered, let's look into modern times.
Today, we have plenty of affordable, real tuning options available to everyone. There are options ranging from Chrome (free), to AEM standalones ($1500, still cheaper than it was in the dark ages). Many options between the two, with varying costs and varying features. So there's the cost issue out of the way. Today, those tuning options range from soldering a ZIF socket in (or paying someone $100 to do it) to straight up plug-and-play. No need to find a mechanic to figure out how to wire it and install it. Once you have it installed, there are practically tuners on every street corner. Dozens of professional tuners in every state, ready to slap your car on some rollers and play around on their laptop until your car is running perfectly. So there's the access issue out of the way. With these two simple changes in the past decade, the FMU hack has been made irrelevant to all but "third world tuners".
Now let's look at the machinist's tools and abilities, as well as the improvements in metallurgic science in the past decade. Back in the dark ages, your average machine shop was using straight edges and feeler gauges. Today, laser gauges and extremely precise tools are the norm. That, combined with improvements in metallurgic science means that we have better pistons with fancy coatings being made for better prices. We have better rods, more affordable on the market. Combine those two things, and we have better engines, with better tolerances. The lowest common denominator from the dark ages suddenly doesn't exist. What's more, the hardware we use can handle more abuse, which effectively decreases our detonation threshold.
When we combine the plethora of tuning options readily available with better built engines, and all of the reasons for lowering compression ratios suddenly vanish. Engines are being built better and can handle more abuse, and tuning is more precise, allowing professionals to tune each tiny (usually down to 500) RPM range individually, rather than just having to "adjust for the sweep."
In short, we have the technology. We have the power. We can build it. We can make it better. Lower compression for boost was the way in the dark ages. We live in the age of enlightenment, though, where we can safely run higher dynamic CRs. Higher dynamic CRs means you can run higher static CRs, which gives you better power out of boost (before the turbo spools). This, in turn, gives you better response out of turns, faster 60' times, and a flat out faster car, period.
Period.
*******. Period.
First off, let's talk about what happens when you lower (or raise) your compression ratio. A higher compression ratio means more heat before your ignition event (spark). Fuel is meant to react to spark in the engine, but it can also react to that heat. When it reacts to heat, that's called "pre-ignition", or detonation, which can shatter sleeves, burn ring lands, snap rods, and crush bearings. That's why we have different octane ratings at the gas station - a basic grocery getter with a 9:1 CR can operate just fine on 87, but that hopped up F20C with an 11.5:1 CR requires 91/93. Feed it 87, and you get detonation. Do it for too long, and your S2000 is now a rolling shell, dead on the side of the highway. That's just static compression ratios. When you add boost into the equation, you're drastically increasing what's called your dynamic compression ratio. To use a stock B18B1 engine as an example, the stock static CR is 9.6:1. When you add 10 PSI, that gets you roughly 16:1 dynamic CR.
Now, a brief 101 into how engines and turbos work. Engines are glorified air pumps. With higher compression, you get a better powerband. More torque, and more power, even without a turbo. Turbos are also air pumps. The turbo pumps more air into the motor than the motor can suck in by itself, thus making more power. Catch 22, though, is that the turbo defines your max power, while your engine defines your powerband. Turbo X will max out at BHP Y regardless of what motor you put it on. For example, when Garrett rates the GTX3076R for 360-640 HP, that means 640 HP total. Put it on a 97 HP D series, or a 400 HP built V8, and you'll still max out at 640 HP on the dyno.
Why do either of those things matter? Detonation threshold. Better fuels have a higher detonation threshold, meaning you can push the engine closer to the proverbial breaking point before you get detonation that ruins your engine. If you have two engines with the same power goals, and the only difference is the static CR, then the higher static CR engine will also have a higher dynamic CR at max power, which means you need better fuel, and a better tune.
One fourth bit of information to get a complete pictures is air/fuel ratios. AFRs need to be within a specific range - more fuel cools the burn, which creates less power, but lowers your detonation threshold. Less fuel creates a hotter burn and a stronger explosion, generating more power, but increasing your detonation threshold until it finally starts knocking.
Now that these basic facts are on the table, let's look at why low CR is ******* stupid.
Back in the 90's and early 00's (here forth referred to as "the dark ages"), import car fans had two tuning options available to them. Option one was to foot the bill for multiple thousands of dollars for standalone tuning options, then spend the time finding a mechanic competent enough to wire it all up, then find a tuner competent enough (and willing) to set up the system. Even after spending those thousands of dollars, and finding those people, the software was still limited in it's capabilities. Option two was the dumb **** called an FMU hack. Creating fuel pressure ramps to feed more gas under higher boost gave people what they thought was a little bit of control on their fueling, but it was ****, and it still is ****.
So, when given the option of spending thousands of dollars on tuning, or spending a couple hundred on an FMU hack, which route do you think the average person will go? FMU hack, every time, period, for all but the most hardcore, most professional cars. Hell, even a lot of the show cars that you would see at SEMA, and the hardcore cars you'd see on the race tracks, were using FMU hacks.
What does this mean, though? FMU hacks had no actual control. You switched around your ratios until you found one that "felt right", and you went with it. You had little control over your AFRs, and had to reach that point that you didn't blow up your engine. To make matters worse, no two cylinders are exactly the same, so you had to build for the lowest common denominator between the four.
Put this all together, and you get smart people running lower compression ratios and higher boost to make more power, safely.
Now that we have facts and history covered, let's look into modern times.
Today, we have plenty of affordable, real tuning options available to everyone. There are options ranging from Chrome (free), to AEM standalones ($1500, still cheaper than it was in the dark ages). Many options between the two, with varying costs and varying features. So there's the cost issue out of the way. Today, those tuning options range from soldering a ZIF socket in (or paying someone $100 to do it) to straight up plug-and-play. No need to find a mechanic to figure out how to wire it and install it. Once you have it installed, there are practically tuners on every street corner. Dozens of professional tuners in every state, ready to slap your car on some rollers and play around on their laptop until your car is running perfectly. So there's the access issue out of the way. With these two simple changes in the past decade, the FMU hack has been made irrelevant to all but "third world tuners".
Now let's look at the machinist's tools and abilities, as well as the improvements in metallurgic science in the past decade. Back in the dark ages, your average machine shop was using straight edges and feeler gauges. Today, laser gauges and extremely precise tools are the norm. That, combined with improvements in metallurgic science means that we have better pistons with fancy coatings being made for better prices. We have better rods, more affordable on the market. Combine those two things, and we have better engines, with better tolerances. The lowest common denominator from the dark ages suddenly doesn't exist. What's more, the hardware we use can handle more abuse, which effectively decreases our detonation threshold.
When we combine the plethora of tuning options readily available with better built engines, and all of the reasons for lowering compression ratios suddenly vanish. Engines are being built better and can handle more abuse, and tuning is more precise, allowing professionals to tune each tiny (usually down to 500) RPM range individually, rather than just having to "adjust for the sweep."
In short, we have the technology. We have the power. We can build it. We can make it better. Lower compression for boost was the way in the dark ages. We live in the age of enlightenment, though, where we can safely run higher dynamic CRs. Higher dynamic CRs means you can run higher static CRs, which gives you better power out of boost (before the turbo spools). This, in turn, gives you better response out of turns, faster 60' times, and a flat out faster car, period.
Period.
*******. Period.
09-24-2015, 11:24 PM
#60
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
If, with everything available to us as car people today, you are still lowering compression for boost, you are wrong. If you don't believe me, feel free to quote, in full, everything in my last post and send it to TheShodan and wantboost both. They are both industry professionals who do this **** for a living. They'll support me.
09-25-2015, 05:36 PM
#61
Honda-Tech Member
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
Good post NotARacist. Informative. You make a good point.
However, wouldn't you want all your power in that range when drag racing anyway?
However, wouldn't you want all your power in that range when drag racing anyway?
09-25-2015, 05:39 PM
#62
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
98% of your time on a drag strip is at high RPM. 2% is down in the bottom, and out of boost between shifts. Higher CRs gives you more power in that 2%, with the same power in that 98%. I repeat, there is absolutely zero reason to run lower CR with the science and technology available to us today.
09-26-2015, 03:51 AM
#63
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Damn I come back and there's like 8 posts XD
NotARaCist very very thorough I had wondered why people didn't go low cr any more, but I figured most of that out from reading and searching though honestly I've never heard of fmu hack of course Im only 25 I haven't been wrenching that long
NotARaCist very very thorough I had wondered why people didn't go low cr any more, but I figured most of that out from reading and searching though honestly I've never heard of fmu hack of course Im only 25 I haven't been wrenching that long
09-26-2015, 04:08 AM
#64
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Any way looking into tuning solutions would be dumb to find a used ecu with hondata s200 or is the s200 horribly outdated?? Or would I be OK with Neptune? I also looked into crome but burning roms seams like a pain in the ***
09-26-2015, 07:10 AM
#65
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Also new issues popped up
1 there is hesitation untill 3500rpm then it runs like a top but under 3500rpm its sluggish and doesn't run well also idles kinda low 500-600rpm (these have been happening since before the head gasket change)
I cleaned the iac and that seams to have helped the idle but I'm still getting the hesitation
2.when I changed the hg the temp sensor wire broke it was brittle I'm not sure how that wire interoperates the temp but I spliced a new wire in were the old one broke and I'm getting a reading but the gauge wire is different should I worry about inaccurate readings?
1 there is hesitation untill 3500rpm then it runs like a top but under 3500rpm its sluggish and doesn't run well also idles kinda low 500-600rpm (these have been happening since before the head gasket change)
I cleaned the iac and that seams to have helped the idle but I'm still getting the hesitation
2.when I changed the hg the temp sensor wire broke it was brittle I'm not sure how that wire interoperates the temp but I spliced a new wire in were the old one broke and I'm getting a reading but the gauge wire is different should I worry about inaccurate readings?
09-28-2015, 05:25 AM
#67
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
So from what I've found sounds like either the ground for VTEC is messes up and its stuck in VTEC or the timing is off somewhere. I wouldn't think the valve timing would be off seeing as above 3k-3.5k rpm it runs like a top so I would say ignition timing.
Also thinking it could be the wires witch have been on the car since I bout it a few years ago witch I'm replacing next check anyway. Timing ignition is tords firewall for advanced and tords the front end for retard right?
Haven't looked into the temp wire yet as at least I'm getting a reading however it's still fluctuating ever so slightly but I'm guessing the wire reads resistance witch would give me a completely inaccurate reading with a thinner wire splices in between two thinner wires. Thoughts?
Also thinking it could be the wires witch have been on the car since I bout it a few years ago witch I'm replacing next check anyway. Timing ignition is tords firewall for advanced and tords the front end for retard right?
Haven't looked into the temp wire yet as at least I'm getting a reading however it's still fluctuating ever so slightly but I'm guessing the wire reads resistance witch would give me a completely inaccurate reading with a thinner wire splices in between two thinner wires. Thoughts?
09-28-2015, 09:56 AM
#68
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
Dude...please stop multiposting like that. If you're the most recent post on your thread, just use the edit button.
For tuning, call your tuner and find out what they're most comfortable using. Go with that.
For your hesitation, double and triple check your mechanical timing. It's probably off.
For tuning, call your tuner and find out what they're most comfortable using. Go with that.
For your hesitation, double and triple check your mechanical timing. It's probably off.
09-28-2015, 08:42 PM
#69
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
My bad yea I was planning an resetting timing when I get a chance to its been hectic trying to find a new job and taking care of a 6 month old and speaking the in-laws in how I'm reading my son because they feel like everything I do it wrong 
10-02-2015, 01:24 PM
#70
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Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
IF you want 'more kick', then do the following:
- Solid motor mounts
- lighten flywheel if you're a competent driver (9-12 lbs should be good)
- Gasket match PnP manifolds and head
- When you get the head machined, get them to mill it a little bit and put a d16y8 2 layer headgasket on there to increase compression a shade
- Do a full tune up. Belts, gaskets, spark plugs, o2 sensor, etc etc.
- Strip as much of your interior as possible if you don't care about it
- 4 - 2 - 1 header
- B series 60mm throttle body
- CAI, but won't give much in the way of HP numbers. Only better throttle response and exhaust tone (but very much worth it)
As far as a cam goes, I don't think you can beat am OEM Tri-Flow cam regrind done by Colt Cams. I have heard nothing but great things about their work. Colt Cams - custom camshaft grinding
- Solid motor mounts
- lighten flywheel if you're a competent driver (9-12 lbs should be good)
- Gasket match PnP manifolds and head
- When you get the head machined, get them to mill it a little bit and put a d16y8 2 layer headgasket on there to increase compression a shade
- Do a full tune up. Belts, gaskets, spark plugs, o2 sensor, etc etc.
- Strip as much of your interior as possible if you don't care about it
- 4 - 2 - 1 header
- B series 60mm throttle body
- CAI, but won't give much in the way of HP numbers. Only better throttle response and exhaust tone (but very much worth it)
As far as a cam goes, I don't think you can beat am OEM Tri-Flow cam regrind done by Colt Cams. I have heard nothing but great things about their work. Colt Cams - custom camshaft grinding
10-02-2015, 01:33 PM
#71
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
Solid motor mounts on a stock'ish motor are complete overkill, a waste of money, and entirely too abusive for a DD. A lightweight flywheel is arguable, but makes the car unpleasant to drive (speaking from experience). "Gasket matching" is a silly way of saying port matching, which won't serve any gain without a tune. An increase in compression won't serve any purpose without a tune. A full tune-up should go without saying. Stripping the interior for a DD is stupid. Any kind of bolt-ons, on a D series engine, are a waste of money, especially without a tune. A cam without a tune is a stupid waste of money.
We appreciate that you're new and trying to help, but you have a lot of incorrect preconceived notions that you need to get out of your head before you can actually help.
We appreciate that you're new and trying to help, but you have a lot of incorrect preconceived notions that you need to get out of your head before you can actually help.
10-03-2015, 07:34 AM
#72
Fish Twig
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Still hunting that foo up there
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Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
IF you want 'more kick', then do the following:
- Solid motor mounts
- lighten flywheel if you're a competent driver (9-12 lbs should be good)
- Gasket match PnP manifolds and head
- When you get the head machined, get them to mill it a little bit and put a d16y8 2 layer headgasket on there to increase compression a shade
- Do a full tune up. Belts, gaskets, spark plugs, o2 sensor, etc etc.
- Strip as much of your interior as possible if you don't care about it
- 4 - 2 - 1 header
- B series 60mm throttle body
- CAI, but won't give much in the way of HP numbers. Only better throttle response and exhaust tone (but very much worth it)
As far as a cam goes, I don't think you can beat am OEM Tri-Flow cam regrind done by Colt Cams. I have heard nothing but great things about their work. Colt Cams - custom camshaft grinding
- Solid motor mounts
- lighten flywheel if you're a competent driver (9-12 lbs should be good)
- Gasket match PnP manifolds and head
- When you get the head machined, get them to mill it a little bit and put a d16y8 2 layer headgasket on there to increase compression a shade
- Do a full tune up. Belts, gaskets, spark plugs, o2 sensor, etc etc.
- Strip as much of your interior as possible if you don't care about it
- 4 - 2 - 1 header
- B series 60mm throttle body
- CAI, but won't give much in the way of HP numbers. Only better throttle response and exhaust tone (but very much worth it)
As far as a cam goes, I don't think you can beat am OEM Tri-Flow cam regrind done by Colt Cams. I have heard nothing but great things about their work. Colt Cams - custom camshaft grinding
10-04-2015, 09:19 AM
#73
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
So far my build list is super tech pistons for compression and future boost motor rebuild on everything else and ganna vet a remaned head cause my valves look like **** manual swap when I have the chance turbo after the manual swap chiped ecu and multiple tunes wide band o2 so I can keep an eye on things after the final tune. Then I'm pretty much ganna be done only looking for 150-160hp just a little more than she has stock I like it the way it is just has issues on highway with not alot of power to pass or overtake so I would like a little more lol. Any way already have a full exhaust with 4-2-1 headers and full catback system cai I dout would be worth the cost seeing as it will eventually be turboed keeping interier tho I may get rid of the Ac but right now I have issues with foging windshield so Ac stays for now
10-04-2015, 09:53 AM
#74
Re: D16z6 very mild build in mind would like to get some thoughts
Why are we just now, on the third page, finding out your car is an autotragic?
Forget everything we've just said. Don't bother doing anything to the motor until you get a third pedal.
Forget everything we've just said. Don't bother doing anything to the motor until you get a third pedal.
10-04-2015, 11:15 AM
#75
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter