94_DX

Hello all

Recently bought a 94 DX Sedan with Auto Trans with 212k indicated mileage for $500 to use as a commuter instead of my 3/4 ton Chevy truck. Prev owner said car would get hot if driven any appreciable distance. 1st thing I noticed was a severely kinked hose attached to the Tstat housing so I replaced the hose, Tstat, coolant, and Rad cap. Also did a comp test which showed a 162-155lbs comp spread between all cylinders.

Put about 400 miles on her and all seemed ok until I had to climb a very steep hill in a residential neighbourhood after a 40 mile freeway commute. Temp gauge didn't show hot but a few minutes after I shut her down, I restarted to move and had rough idle and quite a bit of steam from exhaust so I figure HG is letting loose.

So, with 212k, should I consider pulling the head to do the HG, Timing Belt, and WP or should I look into a lower mileage Jap take-out motor and just swap it in or just sell the car to Pick n Pull for $200 and walk away? Car is no looker but got 29.3mpg the one tank I tracked and the transmission seems to work well.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

well worth saving, i bought my daily under similar circumstances. if the car hasn't been overheated, the head should be ok, if it has, take it to your local machine shop and have it checked out. if you're mechanically inclined, the job wont take you more than 4-5 hours. check out rockauto.com, all the parts should run you $100 ish. if you do decide to abandon ship for $200, pm me. lol

doctorake

Really up to you, if you feel like doing the labor then go that route.

apexi_rsx

if u can change the headgasket yourself id say its worth it... id change the waterpump too while its apart...

94_DX

Thanks for the replies.

I've never attempted a repair as involved as this but have some support so will probably give it a go. On the HG, I thought I read it's recommended to use the OEM gasket for a 6th Gen Civic instead of the stock 5th Gen? Anyone have a p/n handy. Link to best write up on the total procedure?

TomCat39

The only thing about using the D16Y8/Z6 gasket (it's a MLS gasket) is then you will definitely have to send your head in to have it resurfaced to a low RA smoothness.

The 5th gen gasket can handle deeper micro groves and still seal where the steel gaskets need a really smooth surface.

I'm guessing the block should be done too but I never see people mention that side of it.

Also people recommend spraying the MLS gasket with copper spray to help seal it up.

And you will probably want to get new ARP head bolts for the heavier torque you need for the MLS gasket. The 5th gen gasket doesn't need as much torque to seal as the MLS 6th gen gaskets.

If done right the 6th gen gasket will last the life of the car.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

I agree with tomcat. For my own sake (and the fact that I am running a junkyard head) I used the original composite type head gasket. I bought my car@ 140k with the gasket blown, yours has 200k plus. Can't be that poor of a design.

tony_2018

I think the waterpump should've been replaced as well for safety measure when doing all of those maintenance to your cooling system. Its a car you recently bought without knowing if the maintenance was done to it or not.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

yeah, 100% for sure. at those miles, it is probably due.

tlarimer

iTrader: (3)

Not sure where in CA you are, but I highly recommend using Honda blue coolant, if you decide to repair.

If you're doing the HG, may as well do the waterpump and timing belt while you're in there. Also replace the T-stat and radiator hoses to make sure the cooling system is up to par. On that age vehicle without knowing maintenance history, it's insurance and peace of mind.

I have purchased many Honda's with bad HG's and/or cooling problems over the past 20 yrs or so, definitely worth fixing, if done right.

94_DX

Thanks for the replies - thought I stated in my OP that I intended to replace the Head Gasket, Timing Belt, and Water Pump in the same operation.

Former User

OP - Do you have a specific technical question? If so, state it to give this thread some direction.

njn63

Those "people" should be ignored. Every manufacturer of MLS gaskets that I know of recommends against this.

For example:
http://www.enginelabs.com/features/p...y-mls-gaskets/
ARPs are not necessary unless he's planning a high horsepower build. Torque values are very similar on all of the d-series engines regardless of gasket.

94_DX

Ok - have decided to have a highly recommended local Mobile Mechanic do the work as I don't have the time right now to try to do it myself.

Quote to do R+R Head Gasket + Studs, have Head pressure tested and resurfaced + valve guide seals replaced, Timing Belt + Tensioner, Water Pump, Crank + Oil Pump seals, and adjust valves is $550 + Parts which I will source.

94_DX

Should the Camshaft Oil Seal be replaced also?

tlarimer

iTrader: (3)

Since you're in there anyways, it's only a $2-$4 part, I would replace it and the distributor o ring. Also do the oil pan and trans input shaft seal, since you are doing the rear main seal already. You will be pissed if these start leaking a few months from now and are easy to replace while doing the rear main seal.

94_DX

Doesn't the Rear Main Seal involve removing the Transmission? That's something I wasn't looking to have done.

tlarimer

iTrader: (3)

Yes, you said crank and oil pump seals, I read that as rear main seal, my mistake.

ApexSlammed

I had oil leak also on my 98 civic. Thought it was main seal by tranny but just changed the one on water pump side while changing timing belt and all leaks stopped.
Oh ya changed distributor seal too.
Glad I did not have to take off tranny...

TomCat39

Yeah, I always questioned this anyway just because it's aluminum. With salty winter roads, some copper and the aluminum, I didn't like the idea of electrolysis on the outer edges of the gasket and mating surfaces.

Thanks for clarifying.

I think the ARP's are recommended for two purposes, one is you don't have to replace them every time you remove the head like Honda recommends with OEM bolts. And the other is you get to torque the head down an extra 13 ft-lbs over stock torque. The 13 ft-lbs gives a little bit more security of sealing up the MLS gasket. I know it's not necessary but does offer some benefits for the cost.

Correction: Only benefit is the extra torque. Seems I am mistaken in my thoughts that Honda recommended replacing the bolts like other manufacturers do. I'm gathering they are not the same type of one use stretch bolts other car makers tend to use.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

OP- that is a fair labor price for what is involved. i don't commonly see rear main seal issues on civics. they do exist, just not as common as on other cars. OEM headbolts can indeed be reused.

94_DX

Ok - I've got a tentative parts list together and have some questions before I place the order with Benardiparts.com and RockAuto.

In searching here, I found an old thread referencing Honda TSB 97-047 regarding Head Gasket Leaks. Is the HG p/n 12251-P01-004 and Head Bolts p/n 90005-PM3-004 what I should order vs the stock HG and HB's? What is different about the TSB HG and the stock HG?

On the Timing Cover Seals/Gaskets, the parts schematic shows five different pieces (parts 4,5,6,8,& 9). With 212k miles, which of the five most likely should be replaced?


Here's my list - anything I'm missing?


94 Civic DX Parts List

Head Gasket - Honda # 12251-P01-004 - $68.60 - Qty 1

Head Bolts - Honda # 90005-PM3-004 - $4.46 each - Qty 10

Timing Belt - Honda # 14400-PM3-004 - $34.93 - Qty 1

Timing Belt Tensioner - Honda # 14510-PM7-004 - $58.17 - Qty 1

Timing Cover Seal Set - Honda #'s 11831-P01-010 - $24.50, 11832-P01-010 - $6.61, 11833-P01-000 - $3.14, 11925-P01-010 - $4.45, 11926-P01-000 - $3.28 - Qty 1 Each

Front Crankshaft Seal - Honda # 91212-P2F-A01 - $3.86 - Qty 1

Front Camshaft Seal - Honda # 91213-P2F-A01 - $3.44 - Qty 1

Valve Stem Seals (A) - Honda # 12210-PZ1-004 - $1.09ea - Qty 8

Valve Stem Seals (B) - Honda # 12211-PZ1-004 - $1.09ea - Qty 8

Exhaust Manifold Gasket - RockAuto/FEL-PRO # MS941181 - $11.49

Valve Cover Gasket - RockAuto/FEL-PRO # VS50326R1 - $18.36 (w/Grommets & Spark plug tube seals)

njn63

More than anything it's just old school techs. It's the same as people that put RTV on everything. "Double the sealing power" is what people figure... they don't realize that people spent a lot of time figuring out how to make these things work without bandaids.
IIRC Honda recommends checking them for stretch but that's it. It's a good practice if they don't because it's a quick check (checking how the threads mesh).
I wouldn't bother replacing these. The timing cover is only a dust cover so there is no critical sealing function there.

I don't see a water pump in there? I would replace that while you have the timing belt off if it hasn't been replaced recently.

94_DX

So all those timing seals are really only sealing out dust etc?

I forgot to add the WP as I had a question about it. The schematic shows two p/n's for my DX - 19200-P01-004 @ $68 and 19200-P10-A02 @ $48. Whats the difference tween them?

TomCat39

This seal requires cracking the transmission open on the D series trannies. You can't pull out or put in the ISB seal from the outside of the case. That would be a solid extra charge to have someone else do.


@ 94_DX: All I could suggest is get both water pumps, and return the one your's is not. That might be the easiest way. Looks like they had two different pumps on your trim level car. Once your's is off, you should be able to match it up to the proper pump (or your mechanic).