wondering about 'HHO'?
07-31-2008, 08:58 AM
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wondering about 'HHO'?
For those of you who were wondering about the 'HHO' systems that inject hydrogen and oxygen into your fuel system for better gas mileage.....they don't work:
http://www.wyff4.com/news/17036761/detail.html
http://www.wyff4.com/news/17036761/detail.html
08-02-2008, 08:30 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (chiggin)
hay take a look at http://www.fuel-saver.org. They provide alot of good info. most look at water for gas crap and think it will work but there is alot that goes into an hho gen.
08-02-2008, 08:01 PM
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A cockmeat sandwich
These guys claim there system works. A tv station performed a test also.
I know a water injection system will improve fuel economy but by how much I don't know. Also, vehicle that require premium fuel can use regular unleaded if they installed a water injection system.
I know a water injection system will improve fuel economy but by how much I don't know. Also, vehicle that require premium fuel can use regular unleaded if they installed a water injection system.
08-03-2008, 07:20 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (chiggin)
It's amazing how much people buy into crap when they are desperate isnt it? HHO=H2O. They think a simple electrolysis will make enough H2 (hydrogen) gas to cause enough combustion to give them more fuel economy. You'd think all the engineering students wouldnt be jumping on the bandwagon.
08-13-2008, 08:55 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (preludexl)
I'm interested in the idea of it, but i've been trying to do the math before I actually try anything.
In order to actually offset fuel consumption, your HHO system would have to output alot of hydrogen. In order to output alot of hydrogen, you'd need what? Sufficient power, and I assume a halfway-decent (read: efficient) design. Something akin to a set of wavy radiator fins submerged in water comes to mind. Copper fins might have better conductivity, but submerged in water? Forget it. I'm guessing good ol' fashioned stainless is the standard.
As far as I understand, each fin would have to alternate between positive and negative polarity, so you'll need some kind of non-conductive spacers that can withstand any corrosion or heat damage involved. The electricity for electrolysis would come from your alternator(s).
A few relevant questions would be:
Can a single alternator handle the power draw required to produce the required amount of hydrox gas? Is that efficient enough?
Can you fit more than one alternator in the car you're trying to modify?
Are there ECU reflashes or DFMUs available that can aid you in tuning the setup?
Can HHO be used for power, rather than fuel economy?
If there's anything else to consider, please do say so.
...and i'm new here, so be gentle.
In order to actually offset fuel consumption, your HHO system would have to output alot of hydrogen. In order to output alot of hydrogen, you'd need what? Sufficient power, and I assume a halfway-decent (read: efficient) design. Something akin to a set of wavy radiator fins submerged in water comes to mind. Copper fins might have better conductivity, but submerged in water? Forget it. I'm guessing good ol' fashioned stainless is the standard.
As far as I understand, each fin would have to alternate between positive and negative polarity, so you'll need some kind of non-conductive spacers that can withstand any corrosion or heat damage involved. The electricity for electrolysis would come from your alternator(s).
A few relevant questions would be:
Can a single alternator handle the power draw required to produce the required amount of hydrox gas? Is that efficient enough?
Can you fit more than one alternator in the car you're trying to modify?
Are there ECU reflashes or DFMUs available that can aid you in tuning the setup?
Can HHO be used for power, rather than fuel economy?
If there's anything else to consider, please do say so.
...and i'm new here, so be gentle.
08-13-2008, 09:54 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (Jin Marui)
this technology is just starting to be tested in small devices like cell phones... i doubt its advanced enough for this type of application
08-13-2008, 09:56 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (draken187)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by draken187 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this technology is just starting to be tested in small devices like cell phones... i doubt its advanced enough for this type of application</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wat?
Wat?
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08-13-2008, 10:03 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (preludexl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by preludexl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's amazing how much people buy into crap when they are desperate isnt it? HHO=H2O. They think a simple electrolysis will make enough H2 (hydrogen) gas to cause enough combustion to give them more fuel economy. You'd think all the engineering students wouldnt be jumping on the bandwagon.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Actually, no. HH0 is not H20, it's Oxyhydrogen.
People really need to use common sense. The logic behind these things don't work. I think the US needs to start mandating certain college classes like Chemistry, where the first first first thing you learn is the conservation of energy. Basically put, you can't gain energy, you can only transfer it from one source to another. And since no energy conversion is 100% efficient, you'd be using power to generate this contraption, which would give back less power to the motor.
Actually, no. HH0 is not H20, it's Oxyhydrogen.
People really need to use common sense. The logic behind these things don't work. I think the US needs to start mandating certain college classes like Chemistry, where the first first first thing you learn is the conservation of energy. Basically put, you can't gain energy, you can only transfer it from one source to another. And since no energy conversion is 100% efficient, you'd be using power to generate this contraption, which would give back less power to the motor.
08-13-2008, 02:51 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (elohel)
So the energy generated by burning the HHO gas doesn't make up for the energy used separating the water. That much I already figured.
Is it possible that the problem lies more in the efficiency of design?
I have a hunch that the energy required to split a water molecule is more than the energy produced from their fusion. If it doesn't at least break even, there is no merit behind the HHO idea, unless the gas can be produced elsewhere and stored.
I'm beginning to wonder though...does burning HHO even produce nearly as much energy as petrol? The amount needed to match might require such high output, that it might need so much water, the weight would just kill all hope of efficiency.
Is it possible that the problem lies more in the efficiency of design?
I have a hunch that the energy required to split a water molecule is more than the energy produced from their fusion. If it doesn't at least break even, there is no merit behind the HHO idea, unless the gas can be produced elsewhere and stored.
I'm beginning to wonder though...does burning HHO even produce nearly as much energy as petrol? The amount needed to match might require such high output, that it might need so much water, the weight would just kill all hope of efficiency.
08-16-2008, 09:12 AM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (elohel)
Alot of people don't realize that hho is there to help gas to burn more efficient im in the process of actually trying it to see if it works. take a look at http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/BrownsGas.html. now im not trying to start a war everyone is entitled to belive what they want. i hope i shed a little more info on the subject. 
08-21-2008, 07:09 PM
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"Alot of people don't realize that hho is there to help gas to burn more efficient im in the process of actually trying it to see if it works. take a look at http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/BrownsGas.html. now im not trying to start a war everyone is entitled to belive what they want. i hope i shed a little more info on the subject. "
The only problem is that, that website forum seems to be a open discussion forum BUT their store sells their own product of HHO. And will someone that has taken chemistry tell me what oxyhydrogen is? I am actually reviewing my Organic chem right now and I still can't draw the molecule out nor do I ever remember in class of hearing no oxyhydrogen.
There's boneheads in fuelsaver.org who are tweaking their hho flux capacitors with sodium hydroxide, or SOH as the poster there puts it. I'd hate to tell him that NaOH is what the active ingredient in Drano is.
While it's all good to actually give this a try and prove it works but I havent seen any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen cooking grease cars that actually work and my friend did on his diesel mercedes, but havent seen anyone get crap from a mason jar except some canned asparagus and creating some gas of his own.
The only problem is that, that website forum seems to be a open discussion forum BUT their store sells their own product of HHO. And will someone that has taken chemistry tell me what oxyhydrogen is? I am actually reviewing my Organic chem right now and I still can't draw the molecule out nor do I ever remember in class of hearing no oxyhydrogen.
There's boneheads in fuelsaver.org who are tweaking their hho flux capacitors with sodium hydroxide, or SOH as the poster there puts it. I'd hate to tell him that NaOH is what the active ingredient in Drano is.
While it's all good to actually give this a try and prove it works but I havent seen any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen cooking grease cars that actually work and my friend did on his diesel mercedes, but havent seen anyone get crap from a mason jar except some canned asparagus and creating some gas of his own.
08-21-2008, 07:09 PM
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"Alot of people don't realize that hho is there to help gas to burn more efficient im in the process of actually trying it to see if it works. take a look at http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/BrownsGas.html. now im not trying to start a war everyone is entitled to belive what they want. i hope i shed a little more info on the subject. "
The only problem is that, that website forum seems to be a open discussion forum BUT their store sells their own product of HHO. And will someone that has taken chemistry tell me what oxyhydrogen is? I am actually reviewing my Organic chem right now and I still can't draw the molecule out nor do I ever remember in class of hearing no oxyhydrogen.
There's boneheads in fuelsaver.org who are tweaking their hho flux capacitors with sodium hydroxide, or SOH as the poster there puts it. I'd hate to tell him that NaOH is what the active ingredient in Drano is.
While it's all good to actually give this a try and prove it works but I havent seen any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen cooking grease cars that actually work and my friend did on his diesel mercedes, but havent seen anyone get crap from a mason jar except some canned asparagus and creating some gas of his own.
The only problem is that, that website forum seems to be a open discussion forum BUT their store sells their own product of HHO. And will someone that has taken chemistry tell me what oxyhydrogen is? I am actually reviewing my Organic chem right now and I still can't draw the molecule out nor do I ever remember in class of hearing no oxyhydrogen.
There's boneheads in fuelsaver.org who are tweaking their hho flux capacitors with sodium hydroxide, or SOH as the poster there puts it. I'd hate to tell him that NaOH is what the active ingredient in Drano is.
While it's all good to actually give this a try and prove it works but I havent seen any evidence to the contrary.
I've seen cooking grease cars that actually work and my friend did on his diesel mercedes, but havent seen anyone get crap from a mason jar except some canned asparagus and creating some gas of his own.
10-20-2008, 07:57 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (elohel)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by elohel »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Actually, no. HH0 is not H20, it's Oxyhydrogen.
People really need to use common sense. The logic behind these things don't work. I think the US needs to start mandating certain college classes like Chemistry, where the first first first thing you learn is the conservation of energy. Basically put, you can't gain energy, you can only transfer it from one source to another. And since no energy conversion is 100% efficient, you'd be using power to generate this contraption, which would give back less power to the motor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
A stock B18 motor generates about 40 amps at idle. A stock system with the stereo on uses about 30. 10 amps goes to waste.
It's like solar energy. Solar energy is less efficient than having a fusion reactor in your backyard but either way if you don't harness the power of the sun, it goes to waste.
Actually, no. HH0 is not H20, it's Oxyhydrogen.
People really need to use common sense. The logic behind these things don't work. I think the US needs to start mandating certain college classes like Chemistry, where the first first first thing you learn is the conservation of energy. Basically put, you can't gain energy, you can only transfer it from one source to another. And since no energy conversion is 100% efficient, you'd be using power to generate this contraption, which would give back less power to the motor.
</TD></TR></TABLE>A stock B18 motor generates about 40 amps at idle. A stock system with the stereo on uses about 30. 10 amps goes to waste.
It's like solar energy. Solar energy is less efficient than having a fusion reactor in your backyard but either way if you don't harness the power of the sun, it goes to waste.
10-31-2008, 08:06 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (chiggin)
It works. I should know. I have 2 cars on it at an average of 25% increase in mileage. One is a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6 that gets 25.1 mpg hiway. I just installed the HHO simple system and had to do nothing more, just maintain it. The other a 05 Honda Civic. Because of the OBD computer system, this one was harder. My mileage currently is about 45 mpg. (that is 9 miles per gallon better than the 08 EPA estimates. Just do it. Don't tell people it does not work because when it is done properly it works. Do your homework and install it rigtht and you bet it works. There are plenty of good sources for help, more good ones than bad ones. I don't sell stuff so I have no axe to grind but I do not like people telling others that things don't work because of one theory or another when I installed it on my own Honda and Jeep and test it out on every trip I take. Too many give up to easily, like in all things. George Wiseman at Eagle Research has been testing HHO for 20 years seeing it work. He is an HHO genius and does all kinds of things with the gas...from auto's to welding. I started with Water4gas, read the books, and modified some of the instructions to work as I wanted it done. I paid the price, did the work, and got the results.
10-31-2008, 08:27 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (FuNkDrSpOt)
Lye is one of the main ingredients used as an electrolyzer by the real experts who produce HHO generators. Drano is a brand name for lye used to clean drains. HHO works all right, I should know. I personally put it on 2 cars and I am seeing a 25% increase in meleage which makes me very happy. One, I save some money, two, I did what others say can not be done. Pay the price, learn the lessons, invest time and some money, find out how others have been doing it for years. Talk to them, learn from them, and then do it yourself. That is what I did and it works. I wish I could help you if you are really interested. I don't sell stuff but I like to see poeple win and succeed if they have the guts to go for it. Good luck.
10-31-2008, 08:31 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (chiggin)
Never really tried it or witnessed it done have you. I did it on both my cars. Got a 25% increase in mileage, one ( the 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6)was easier than the other( my 95 Honda Civic) which is loaded with sensors etc. It is up 20-25%
into the mid 40's, about like the Hybrids or a little better. I just had to apply myself to the science and the discipline that is required. One thing I did not do was to tell myself it could not be done because I had seen it done.
into the mid 40's, about like the Hybrids or a little better. I just had to apply myself to the science and the discipline that is required. One thing I did not do was to tell myself it could not be done because I had seen it done.
10-31-2008, 08:36 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (Jin Marui)
The students are too busy with theory and school to try things out. I just went out and did it starting with WATER4GAS. I don't sell stuff but I made it work well on 2 cars...a 25% savings on fuel. It was not really easy but doable. Made me very happy to stick with it and succeed. Ozzie Freedom is currently touring with a Volkswagon diesel getting 60 miles per gallon. Diesels are easier and less complicated to install HHO on.
10-31-2008, 11:38 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (chiggin)
Knew this for a while but a straight water injection system will allow you to use 87 octane in the Si and make the same power. Getting ready to do some fuel and mileage tests here really soon!
A company I know installed the HHO system on their entire fleet, paid a lot of money, it was a pilot program. Needless to say but it was a total bust!
Modified by Kidnkorner at 1:45 AM 11/1/2008
A company I know installed the HHO system on their entire fleet, paid a lot of money, it was a pilot program. Needless to say but it was a total bust!
Modified by Kidnkorner at 1:45 AM 11/1/2008
11-01-2008, 10:58 PM
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Re: wondering about 'HHO'? (Elcaptan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Elcaptan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It works. I should know. I have 2 cars on it at an average of 25% increase in mileage. One is a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6 that gets 25.1 mpg hiway... I don't sell stuff so I have no axe to grind but I do not like people telling others that things don't work because of one theory or another when I installed it on my own Honda and Jeep and test it out on every trip I take. Too many give up to easily, like in all things. George Wiseman at Eagle Research has been testing HHO for 20 years seeing it work. He is an HHO genius and does all kinds of things with the gas...from auto's to welding. I started with Water4gas, read the books, and modified some of the instructions to work as I wanted it done. I paid the price, did the work, and got the results.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't believe in this system at all. I agree with elohel about mandated courses haha.
On paper, it may be a sound theory, but more often than not, its execution is done improperly, thus unfortunately disproving the theory. Nevertheless, having successful results in only 2 cars is not a good representation of how the system will work among the general population of automobiles on the road. The HHO system may have been around for 20 years but has yet to prove itself to enter mainstream production. More recent technologies have been implemented because they work.
I don't believe in this system at all. I agree with elohel about mandated courses haha.
On paper, it may be a sound theory, but more often than not, its execution is done improperly, thus unfortunately disproving the theory. Nevertheless, having successful results in only 2 cars is not a good representation of how the system will work among the general population of automobiles on the road. The HHO system may have been around for 20 years but has yet to prove itself to enter mainstream production. More recent technologies have been implemented because they work.
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