sleeper98civic

I took my 03 Accord sedan to my local independent Honda shop to diagnose a ticking sound from the top end and saw that some the material on all of the cam lobes were very scarred like if someone took a grinder to them. Has anyone else had propblems with this?? The car only has 94K and oil changes were done on the regular basis. I will take some pics once the cam is out.

MSchu

I have seen flaking on cams followers that were plated... I dont know if this is your issue but you may have them look into that

spoonfedcrx

Ive seen older Tls were the cam lobe has a groove from rocker in it, causing a tapping noise. Different cam and motor so not really relevant. Would liek to see pics though.

sleeper98civic

I will post up pics of the bad cam when I pick up my car tomorrow morning. No more ticking sound!!!

HONDAPARTSMANMIKE

i have seen a few cams like this come into my dealer on the civic si, accord,crv's. i seen the rollers on the rocker arms end cracking and cause the cam lobes to wear.i seens lobes that were pitted but not affect the performance. post up some pics.

sleeper98civic

These are the pics of the #3 lobe wich was the worst one. Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics.

HONDAPARTSMANMIKE

how does the roller on the rocker arm look that matches that lobe?? make sure it not cracked or damaged in any way.

Targa250R

Ditto. I've seen a number of pitted K20 and K24 cams.

postman

ive seen some of these as well on the k series. i have only ever seen it on the #1 lobe though. never any customer complaints, just noticed during a valve adjustment.

MSchu

Yikes... that's very ugly. I have never seen this on well tuned cars for the exception when they had a failure.

sleeper98civic

Sorry about the double picture. Here's the other one.

MSchu

on one lobe only?

AFAccord

My tuner has many horror stories about the cams and valve train in K-series. Those pictures scare me even more. Hopefully the dealer can find the problem and/or replace the cam and rocker as a mfg defect.

Targa250R

Aftermarket tuning is something completely different.

As far as the stock parts are concerned, the powertrain warranty for '06+ Hondas is 5 years or 60,000 miles. There is no chance of Honda covering any of these cases unless you have documented proof of the wear prior to the end of the warranty period.

Also, I haven't seen mass failures or performance issues specifically related to this problem, so there's even less of a chance of Honda effecting any sort of retroactive warranty extension to cover it.

Evs-One

It was my shop the OP was referring to. This is the 2nd time I have seen this happen.

first instance was 2 years ago at the dealership....80k mile 03 Accord, exact same wear. Honda covered it because the guy was up to date on maintenance. Even if you're not, there's no reason for a cam to fail like this....it's all due to poor materials. Only exhaust cams...not intake.

Targa250R

I don't disagree that the problem is due to poor materials, manufacturing, or design. There's no disputing that.

However, I don't have any expectation for Honda to cover it in high-mileage cars. If they were to do so, it should be considered a generous bonus. Goodwill repairs aren't always a given. The warranty stands as defined, and you agree to that when you purchase the vehicle. If you want a 10-year/100,000 mile warranty, then you should buy another brand of vehicle that offers it.

Years ago (as in early/mid-'80s) Honda had a lot of issues with cams breaking, so this doesn't come as a complete surprise to me. No engine is 100% bulletproof.

parce85

i have a feeling that this is caused by the exhaust rocker adjustment screw, it seems to tighten itself (tighter valve clearance) in normal operation versus the intake side being loose, i always check the valve clearance before loosening the lock nut. Also only seen this in the non performance vtec k engines accord civic element crv

MSchu

that may be a legitimate claim... it seems like a follower that is out of spec, to tight... specially if it is happening on only one or two of the lobes at a time

Mechanic

Whaddya know . . . . (mumbling to myself).

If you've been to other boards (ephatch.com, for example), from time to time you'd have seen an occasional post from someone whose Civic Si has experienced the same thing, camshaft galling in a k-series motor. There's been a lot of speculation as to what might be the cause -- i.e., a metallurgical issue, poor design, lack of lubrication, etc. After recently seeing a thread or two elsewhere concerning this issue, on a hunch I decided to look around to see if this problem has surfaced on other boards. And, whaddya know, it has.

Here's my supposition: Approximately seven or eight years ago Honda changed its engine-oil recommendation from 5W-30 to 5W-20. Ford Motor Co. and others have now done likewise. One of the reasons for doing so -- and perhaps the principal reason for doing so -- was to reduce the parasitic drag caused by engine oil. A lighter weight oil has less drag. This doesn't result in a significant fuel-mileage increase in any particular car, but fleetwide it makes a huge difference, and this in turn enabled Honda to raise its CAFE fuel-mileage results and obtain EPA certification as a manufacturer of low- and ultra-low exhaust- emission vehicles.

The problem is that 5W-20 is, IMHO, a really low engine-oil weight for everyday use. Yes, 5W-20 makes it easier to start an engine in cold weather, but that low weight also significantly raises the risk of oil shearing on engine parts in general and camshaft lobes in particular. This issue has been exacerbated by all manufacturers adopting 5000- and 10,000-mile service intervals. The oil simply wears out and can't protect against metal-to-metal contact. See http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTest...st/default.htm. This deterioration can begin in as few as 25 hours of operation. That's not much.

Thus, it is my contention that what you've experienced is not a metallurgical or design problem, but rather it's a lubrication problem: 5W-20 weight engine oil has simply too low a viscosity to protect crucial engine parts over time. In this regard, I think it's significant to note that Honda never changed its recommended engine-oil weight for its higher performance engines (such as the Si, and now, the turbocharged RDX). The recommended oil in these applications has always been 5W-30, and in the case of the RDX, Honda recommends Mobil 1, a synthetic oil, to cope with the extreme oil temperatures.

I've asked on other boards if those who have experienced this problem were using 5W-20 weight oil or 5W-30, and so far no one who decided early on to continue using 5W-30 weight oil (as I did) has reported this problem. That's not to say the use of 5W-30 prevented the problem. It's entirely possible there are other causes (engine modifications, poor filtration, constant high-rpm operation, etc.), but whatever the potential cause, using a higher weight oil may be a significant mitigating factor. (And this is why, I think, that Valvoline's Syntec and Castrol's Edge synthetics are putting such emphasis on their Sequence IVA test results. I expect other oil manufacturers to follow their lead.)

Evs-One

About 4 years ago at one of my old dealership gigs, we had a customer with an Insight with 120k that followed maintenance schedule by the book and to the "T"....after major engine failure, Honda covered short block and cylinder head under goodwill. Depending on service history and your Honda rep, you'd be surprised at what they cover.

Dogginator

Unfortunately if you did the maintenance yourself or at an independent shop the exact same way, you'd be SOL.