Which service manual's labels are incorrect: The 94 Helms Accord Service Manual, or the 94-97 Haynes
09-06-2008, 11:47 AM
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Which service manual's labels are incorrect: The 94 Helms Accord Service Manual, or the 94-97 Haynes
I'm referring to the relays' terminal labeling in the pictures of both manuals. I have looked over the A, B, C, D relay terminal labeling from these two publications and they are not matching as to how they are labeling the terminals for testing. It is BS like this that just brings your work to a standstill and/or causes lots of problems. Imagine if I only had one of these publications and it was the incorrect one -- Z A P, there goes another sensitive electrical part, not to mention that with incorrect information, it complicates the hell out of everything, sometimes making successful repairs impossible.
In the 1994 Accord Service Manual go to the chapter on AC, Page 22-20, Relays, Test, and look at the pictures ...
In the 1994-1997 Haynes Repair Manual, go to Chapter 3, Cooling, Heating, and AC, to page 3-5, and look at picture # 4.5C ...
Which Manual has the incorrect relay terminal labeling?
Modified by diyer at 4:19 PM 9/6/2008
In the 1994 Accord Service Manual go to the chapter on AC, Page 22-20, Relays, Test, and look at the pictures ...
In the 1994-1997 Haynes Repair Manual, go to Chapter 3, Cooling, Heating, and AC, to page 3-5, and look at picture # 4.5C ...
Which Manual has the incorrect relay terminal labeling?
Modified by diyer at 4:19 PM 9/6/2008
09-06-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: Which service manual's labels are incorrect: The 94 Helms Accord Service Manual, or the 94-97 Ha
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dtapia »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the helms </TD></TR></TABLE>
Uh, your reply looks as if your answering the post title, which asked which publication was incorrect. Since I cannot change the title I will change the post to ask which one is incorrect. Please also edit your answer to relect the change, unless you were answering the title.
Would you please clarify your answer. It looks as if your posting that Helms is incorrect. Is that what you mean?
Modified by diyer at 5:40 PM 9/6/2008
Uh, your reply looks as if your answering the post title, which asked which publication was incorrect. Since I cannot change the title I will change the post to ask which one is incorrect. Please also edit your answer to relect the change, unless you were answering the title.
Would you please clarify your answer. It looks as if your posting that Helms is incorrect. Is that what you mean?
Modified by diyer at 5:40 PM 9/6/2008
09-06-2008, 12:50 PM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Which service manual's labels are incorrect: The 94 Helms Accord Service Manual, or the 94-97 Ha
my bad the haynes i have seen info on in person has never been 100% correct and will lead the person in the wrong direction and give some wrong info. since their is no revised info for the helm i would have to stay with the factory manual.
i worked for honda in the early days and have net seen any revisions to date.
09-06-2008, 02:34 PM
#5
In a Junkyard near you.
PM me with your email address and I'll send you the correct troubleshooting guide.
If you are ever in doubt the Haynes manual is probably wrong. Those manuals suck.
If you are ever in doubt the Haynes manual is probably wrong. Those manuals suck.
09-07-2008, 04:13 PM
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Re: (dtapia)
PS. I have edited this reply since posting it.
As to why I asked about who was correct Helms or Haynes, it is because I wanted to test the Condenser Fan and AC Relays (located on the side of the condenser fan shroud). The Radiator Cooling Fan is not turning on when the engine is running - not ever, unless I jump the switch with a paper clip.
The vehicle is also under heating-overcooling, according to the temperature gauge. That may be the reason why the fans are not running. I am running the engine only at idle, the vehicle is not being driven on the road. I keep an eye on the temp gauge to make sure the engine does not overheat. When I jump the ECT Switch A, with Ign key on, both fans come on. When I jump the ECT Switch B, the Radiator fan comes on after the Ign key is turned off. But I do not suspect the switches anyway, because, I remember testing Switch A and B for continuity on my stove in a pot, at the higher temps and both had continuity. The only way the switches could be the problem is if they can get lazy and now require a higher temp to close the contact points. I don't know about such physics questions if that is likely. Anything is possible, but is it likely??? Those switches are a simple wax melt design like a T- Stat, they just aren't anything complex. I suspect that the problem is most likely the engine is not getting hot enough to trigger the fans to come on.
I have already switched the Radiator Cooling fan and Power Window Relays [located in the engine compartment] and the windows power up with either relay, so I have eliminated the cooling fan relay as the problem. I also switched the AC Relay and the Condenser Fan Relay and both of them will turn the Radiator fan on if I jump Switch B. So, the relays and the entire circuit is ok.
I recently installed a new rad [aluminum core] and ever since then the dashboard temp gauge is slightly below normal (indicating an underheating or overcooling condition). Let's say that # 0 represents a fully cold engine, and # 10 represents a fully hot engine, and # 5 is right in the middle where the gauge reads when the temp is normal. Well then, this gauge pointer is at # 4 position, slightly under normal temp. So, I tested the ECT Dashboard Temp Gauge and the ECT Sending Unit, see Helms, p 23-126, and those two parts checked out ok.
Since part of the issue is overcooling the next issue would be that the Thermostat it is stuck in the open position, or that it is a lower temp thermostat. The T-Stat currently in this vehicle is not marked HONDA or STANT. It also has no jiggle pin located at the 12 O'clock position (Some Honda Techs told me to drill a small 1/8" hole in the T-Stat to insure the engine does not overheat if the T-Stat fails in the closed position). Anyway, Helms says that the T-Stat starts to open at 169 F., and is fully open at 194 F. I placed a thermometer on the rad filler neck (while I was also bleeding the air out), and the temp got to around 194 F, and sometimes it would go up to 200 F., and once it hit 204 F., but then dropped quickly back to 194 F., on its own -- but the fans never came on. Helms also says that while bleeding the cooling system, engine running, rad cap off, that the fans should come on at least twice -- nope, not at all, no fans.
As for the temp gauge being slightly under normal, it has been suggested that either someone replaced the cap with a 180 alternate cap, and/or that the new aluminum rad is so much more efficient at cooling the engine that it is in effect not getting hot enough to trigger the fans to come on. But then what about the 194-204 temp I got at idle with the rad cap off, wouldn't that indicate it is a 194 Stat ??? ... and, the Fans should have come on, right ???
QUESTIONS:
#1. Is the FCM's (Fan Control Module) function only to turn the Radiator Fan on after the engine is shut off when the engine temp has reached 223 F (See Helms, p 23-106, footnote, Radiator Fan Control
, or does the FCM have an additional function, like regulating the fans to come at the lower engine temps, while driving the vehicle, or at idle?
#2. Is the Fan Control Module and the Fan Control Timer the same part. I have read both terms being used here at Honda-Tech.
#3 Are there any TSB's that Honda changed the OE Thermostat temp to 180 F ??? ... Regarding the alternate Stats, Helms does not mention any other Stat except the 194 F one, as being OE. But Stant is claiming that Honda has told them the OE Stat temp is 180F.
#4. Concerning p. 23-126, in the Helms, I have no red wire coming out of the electrical connector for the ECT Sending Unit. I only have a Yellow- Green wire. Is that a typo?
Modified by diyer at 1:28 PM 9/8/2008
As to why I asked about who was correct Helms or Haynes, it is because I wanted to test the Condenser Fan and AC Relays (located on the side of the condenser fan shroud). The Radiator Cooling Fan is not turning on when the engine is running - not ever, unless I jump the switch with a paper clip.
The vehicle is also under heating-overcooling, according to the temperature gauge. That may be the reason why the fans are not running. I am running the engine only at idle, the vehicle is not being driven on the road. I keep an eye on the temp gauge to make sure the engine does not overheat. When I jump the ECT Switch A, with Ign key on, both fans come on. When I jump the ECT Switch B, the Radiator fan comes on after the Ign key is turned off. But I do not suspect the switches anyway, because, I remember testing Switch A and B for continuity on my stove in a pot, at the higher temps and both had continuity. The only way the switches could be the problem is if they can get lazy and now require a higher temp to close the contact points. I don't know about such physics questions if that is likely. Anything is possible, but is it likely??? Those switches are a simple wax melt design like a T- Stat, they just aren't anything complex. I suspect that the problem is most likely the engine is not getting hot enough to trigger the fans to come on.
I have already switched the Radiator Cooling fan and Power Window Relays [located in the engine compartment] and the windows power up with either relay, so I have eliminated the cooling fan relay as the problem. I also switched the AC Relay and the Condenser Fan Relay and both of them will turn the Radiator fan on if I jump Switch B. So, the relays and the entire circuit is ok.
I recently installed a new rad [aluminum core] and ever since then the dashboard temp gauge is slightly below normal (indicating an underheating or overcooling condition). Let's say that # 0 represents a fully cold engine, and # 10 represents a fully hot engine, and # 5 is right in the middle where the gauge reads when the temp is normal. Well then, this gauge pointer is at # 4 position, slightly under normal temp. So, I tested the ECT Dashboard Temp Gauge and the ECT Sending Unit, see Helms, p 23-126, and those two parts checked out ok.
Since part of the issue is overcooling the next issue would be that the Thermostat it is stuck in the open position, or that it is a lower temp thermostat. The T-Stat currently in this vehicle is not marked HONDA or STANT. It also has no jiggle pin located at the 12 O'clock position (Some Honda Techs told me to drill a small 1/8" hole in the T-Stat to insure the engine does not overheat if the T-Stat fails in the closed position). Anyway, Helms says that the T-Stat starts to open at 169 F., and is fully open at 194 F. I placed a thermometer on the rad filler neck (while I was also bleeding the air out), and the temp got to around 194 F, and sometimes it would go up to 200 F., and once it hit 204 F., but then dropped quickly back to 194 F., on its own -- but the fans never came on. Helms also says that while bleeding the cooling system, engine running, rad cap off, that the fans should come on at least twice -- nope, not at all, no fans.
As for the temp gauge being slightly under normal, it has been suggested that either someone replaced the cap with a 180 alternate cap, and/or that the new aluminum rad is so much more efficient at cooling the engine that it is in effect not getting hot enough to trigger the fans to come on. But then what about the 194-204 temp I got at idle with the rad cap off, wouldn't that indicate it is a 194 Stat ??? ... and, the Fans should have come on, right ???
QUESTIONS:
#1. Is the FCM's (Fan Control Module) function only to turn the Radiator Fan on after the engine is shut off when the engine temp has reached 223 F (See Helms, p 23-106, footnote, Radiator Fan Control
, or does the FCM have an additional function, like regulating the fans to come at the lower engine temps, while driving the vehicle, or at idle? #2. Is the Fan Control Module and the Fan Control Timer the same part. I have read both terms being used here at Honda-Tech.
#3 Are there any TSB's that Honda changed the OE Thermostat temp to 180 F ??? ... Regarding the alternate Stats, Helms does not mention any other Stat except the 194 F one, as being OE. But Stant is claiming that Honda has told them the OE Stat temp is 180F.
#4. Concerning p. 23-126, in the Helms, I have no red wire coming out of the electrical connector for the ECT Sending Unit. I only have a Yellow- Green wire. Is that a typo?
Modified by diyer at 1:28 PM 9/8/2008
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09-07-2008, 04:30 PM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (diyer)
the fan timer does indeed control the rad fan, condenser fan,ecm,a&b coolant temp sensors,the a/c diode and the fan relays.
i have a etm and will send you some detailed circuit info if you want it.
dinotapia@sbcglobal.net
i have a etm and will send you some detailed circuit info if you want it.
dinotapia@sbcglobal.net
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