ok im bout to buy 84mm pistons , i need ur guys help what needs to be done to get the engine running perfect , i dont live in states , and i believe the engineer in NZ never done this before

so this is what i know so far :
- custom headgasket
- enlarged the combustion camber


and what else ??
thanks guys

 

That is pretty much what you need to get done. Go with cometic headgasket, good stuff.

If you are interested in JE 84mm pistons let me know i have a set brand new, wrist pins, rings, etc. 500.00. Evansjs@lafayette.edu

 

Don't touch the combustion chamber. I am not sure what kinda setup you have, but if you have a b18c, then have it resleeved, bore it out, use the right gasket and that's it man.

 

u sure i dont have enlarged the combustion chamber ??
i tot its gonna get detonation with the new 84mm pistons if i dont enlarged it

 

I'd like to hear your reasoning here as well

An unmodified combustion chamber is more likely to suffer from detonation, especially when boosted or high compression is used.

Definately enlarge it. Just look for a machinist with a Serdi bit.

 

ok his name is "BodyKits NW" so go figure........
defenately enlarge it.

 

a b18c? are you gonna bore out the stock cylinder walls? That's dangeraously thin....

 

no full resleeve of couse

 

I dont know why you say not to bore out the combustion. If you bore out your block you should bore out the combustion chamber to match. It be a waste if you didnt. My head is at portflow right now and my block is w/ Golden Eagle, both are being bored out 2mm over. Its just pointless to bore out the block and not the combustion chamber.

 

I think he was saying dont bore out a stock block. Resleeve it and then bore it.

 

Here's a question:

I too have my block at Golden Eagle. Gonna go with the "Golden Eagle" treatment (2.0 liters). Now, I also just bought a BRAND NEW ITR cylinder head. I really don't want to spend the money on new valvetrain, valves, and headwork. However, I would like to enlarge the combustion chamber to accomodate the 84.5 bore.

Can I have any machine shop do the above job? And do I have to strip the cylinder head?

What's the average cost to enlarge the combustion chamber?

 

I getting the whole works from portflow (port and polish, ferrea valve train, etc..) they charged me an additional $150.00 to bore out the combustion chamber 2mm over.

 

Good to hear ... do you think they can bore out the combustion chamber with the valves still in the head?

 

Yah my screen name is BodyKits NW! Go figure, I got a 2000 b18c5 84mm turbo motor. You guys just don't have a clue, someone post something with some real info seriously. Again, don't touch the combustion chamber like I said, especially if you live in a area where no one has experience with Honda Cylinder Head Technology. Don't go with what other people say, doesn't mean everyone agree's it is right.

Here are the facts man. The chances are your going to go with a shelf item piston. Lets take the JE 84mm b20 pistons. They are 9:1 compression and JE has designed them for a motor with a UNMODIFIED Combustion Chamber. So they automatically assume your motor is in stock form other than the fact it has been resleeved and bored/honed to 84mm. Also they have designed it for a b20vtec with a "b16 head" NOT the stock B20HEAD!!! If used with a b18c5 or c1 your compression may yield lower than 9:1, but in my case since my motor was sleeved, it was decked as well. Also the head was ported and it was slightly milled to clean things up. So I am quite positive I am within 9:1 compression still.

Also for detonation to occur, come on man, your going from a 81mm to 84mm. For one, that is not that much of a difference when you do the math, that barely puts it close to actually 2.0 liters. And your also already at 9:1 compression, which I am only assuming. Opening up the combustion chamber is just a waste of money, and also you may ruin a perfectly well designed chamber. The only thing you will really see from that is a lower compression number if you open the chamber. Which is not necessary.

Ever good motor builder will do a mock up, and just clay the motor and make sure your clearances are good. Opening up the chamber is more common in domestics than with honda motors. Were dealing with something that is very sensitive, and shouldn't be modified unless you know what your doing and why. Ohh yah, one more thing, you know Ericks Racing 2.0 Liter ALL MOTOR "MR. WORLD RECORD HOLDER" His combustions chamber is not modified, and look at what they have accomplished. Power is made elsewere!!

My Setup
2000 Integra Type-R Motor
Golden Eagle Sleeves
84mm Bored/Hones
84mm JE Pistons
Eagle Rods
Rotating Assembly Balanced and Blueprinted
Crank Polished
ARP Head Bolts
New Bearings
B16a2 Head w/ .5 oversized valves
Upgraded Valvetrain
Competition Port and Polish
JG/Edelbrock Intake Manifold
68mm Ericks Racing Throttle Body

And a few other things....


[Modified by BodyKits NW, 6:33 PM 4/28/2002]

 

hmm interesting ......

 

Yah, ain't it.

 

Here is a link that had a very detailed discussion about bore size and about matching the combustion chamber the bored out block.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=156070

I also had another link from a different website explaining about matching the bore size of the block with the head, as soon as I find it I will post that as well too.

Bodykits NW, I am not trying to offend you or anything, but if you bore out your block and dont bore out the head vs. matching them wouldnt it just seem like you would have better flow if they matched. I talked to alot of people before I sent out my block and head out, and even talk to my local shop here, and they both agreed they should match.

 

I will answer this in-depth tomorrow, but the question is, is it really necessary? Like I said the piston such as the 84mm JE pistons are designed for the b16 head with the stock combustion chamber and to work as efficient as possible with that combustion chamber size. If you enlarge it and do not know what you are doing and do not take the design of the piston into play you may leave yourself in a situation were you lose more than you gain. I do not have the time to write a full page essay on this, but you have to also factor in what this guy has access to in his local area and what will work best for him. If it was really necessary and is such a huge factor and a must to do, then I believe even the piston manuf. would say it was necessary. But in this case, again I refer back to the b20pistons from JE, they are designed to perform with the b16 head and combustion chamber size.

 

Your whole argument against boring out the CC is that it will lower the compression ratio because the piston is designed for a stock CC. I can understand that. But wouldn't enlarging the CC radius allow for unshrouding of the valves? How exactly would that hurt the engine? Out of curiosity, how much power is your B18C5 setup making? Sounds pretty nice...

 

I have to say I agree with BodyKits NW. I know Erick's Racing and Jeff at ImportBuilders both leave the cc at 81mm, regardless of cylinder bore. I'm told it decreases flow when you open up the cc to 84/85mm. Works for them, so I think it will work for me. Heck, even works for Honda, they left the LS head alone on the B20. When I sleeve my B18C to 84.5mm I will leave my head alone.

 

"Prelude Vtec 23" In most cases reworkin the combustion chamber the right way is more beneficial than anything. In my case my motor is built for turbo and enlargin the combustion chamber was not really necessary. I'm sorry, but the flow bench doesn't lie man, I am all about only doing things that will show me real gains and keeping things simple. Even ask Earl, the guy running 9's on this board, just like he says, keep it simple.

Please show me in a real situation where opening up the combustion chamber shows enough results where it actually gave you enough of a gain to where it was really worth doing. Seriously in a real life situation, there are more people out there that are running b18c's with a 84.5mm bore with a stock combustion chamber. Most of them can't even afford to do it, but with the right head gasket and tuning they are still able to put down good numbers and get good 1/4 times. The gain, if any is soo slight that it really comes down to other factors which will determine a good setup. I won't list any names, but there are quite a few people in the 10's and 9's running pretty much stock heads and not even a 84mm bore, but a 83mm. They are running a good turbo combination and the motors are tuned corrently and they are able to put the power to ground. I put my money into .5 oversized valves, a complete rework of the head, and a JG Intake Manifold, but after all this I kept my combustion chamber stock like many other people. Seriously show me a big difference where enlarging the chamber shows me that you were able to run a more agressive tune, because seriously other things come into factor other than opening up the combustion chamber. The real question is, is it necessary, and really it's not. Unless you really are going all out and going with some crazy *** 86mm bore all motor buildup. You know I can talk and talk and people can talk about all that crazy squish stuff and about TDC, and whatnot, but lets look at the majority of what real people are doing and what most people are doing on the track. I know too many engine builders that know better than opening up the CC on a 84mm bore. And most people that blow their engines on the track and needs to rebuild sometimes have to use a head that is primarly stock such as Chris Rado had to do at one time. I believe that motor even gave him the world record. You just don't have time to worry about little things like that when your at that level, because they know better. They seriously know that the gain if any is soo small that other things are more important such as properly building the motor and getting it tuned correctly. They know that the stock CC is pretty much perfect, and that it will give them the results that they need.

BTW: I will post my dyno in the next couple weeks, I have some bodywork that needs to be done to the car. When you see the pictures of what I did all your mouths are going to drop. I guarentee it.

 

an unmodified combustion chamber, larger bore or not, is more likely to suffer from detonation. Sharp edges = hot spots = detonation starting points. It has nothing to do with flow, but combustion quality. Flow is simply determined by port shape/size, valve size, intake manifold, etc.

You can leave your head alone if you want, me, I've had mine modified, and I'll enjoy the additional timing that I'll be able to run.

 

Very well said

 

Everyone has their opinion, but I won't be touching mine cause I am very confident in my setup and the way the motor was built. I don't believe I have anything to worry about such as hot spots. I think the majority of detonation will be had in the piston design kinda like the SRP b16 9:1 compression pistons that have a sharp dip in it at the edge which also creates a edge that is very sharp "HOT SPOT HANGOUT". That is a likely spot for something to occur. This is also why most engine builders will modify the piston and hand sand them to lessen the chances of something happenin and adding extra security by having the domes coated "Coating is kinda extreme, but does ad extra protection". At the same time detonation will occur with a badly tuned setup, but I don't believe you are going to daily drive something where detonation is around the corner; why run a agressive setup on the street? When you tune a turbo motor on the dyno you will find the best AF ratio to be the one right above the run you see with power loss. That tells you detonation is right around the corner. So you go back and tune around that AF ratio before you see a drop in HP. Which will keep you away from detonation no matter what, and it really won't change anything, cause like I said why run a agressive setup on the street and make yourself most likely to blow your motor. And if it is a daily driver, you wanna kinda make it slightly rich. With that in mind, you will stay away from detonation, and I bet you you'll be at the same HP level and same AF ratio even with a open CC chamber. This is assuming you are at a 83-84.5mm bore. So I believe I have said everything I need to say, and everyone on this board can do whatever they want, but this is my experience and opinions on this particular setup. Remember, my name is BodyKits NW, I don't have a clue what I am talkin about, except that I got a 2000 84mm B18c5 Built up the *** motor. So, thanks for letting me post and taking the time to read what I have to say. Thanks everyone, good luck.


[Modified by BodyKits NW, 2:37 PM 4/30/2002]

 

I also do not have a clue, I'm a dyno tuner, what do I know about how engines like to run?

I guess I'll suffer in my 1994 84.5mm B18c1 half way built up good *** motor

EDIT - please note mass amounts of sarcasm


[Modified by VaporTrail, 5:30 PM 4/30/2002]