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What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Old 12-07-2016, 08:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

10-1 or higher even for pump gas, you could EASILY do 11-1 on e85 thats what i would personally do.

yes makes power after 7k. But REALISTICALLY how much time are you gonna be in that range. once again like shodan said that manifold is best for a drag car, everything's a trade off so if you make more up top you will make less in the midrange... when used on the street your gonna be in the midrange 2k-4k quite a bit so you dont want sacrifice too much for the sake of "drive ability"
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Got it, makes perfect sense. Thank you.

I am still looking for a good build able chassis. Thinking EG or something similar, but really just want to spend 500 or less on a runner. Don't laugh I bought my last 93 hatch for $300, drove it home and had it sold a few days later for $2500.

I also like the idea of a 96+ 4 door.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:52 PM   #28
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yea thats up to you i have a 98 I like the body style just wish it was a hatch or delsol, when I had my delsol I wanted a civic 96+ grass is always greener i guess haha. but to each there own only you can decide this
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:09 AM   #29
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

I bought a car, and a head.

b16 head- supposedly real type r- has upgraded springs and retainers. The pics look very nice. The member who offered it to me was not listing the head, but saw this thread and offered it. Very cool of him.


The car is a 1993 Civic Coupe, 5 speed dx with AC. $400 BUCKS, CLEAN TITLE but non running
It is white with tan interior, I have not personally seen a tan interior civic, it was part of the allure.

Now I wait on shipping... ugh.


I am looking at Supertech 10.6 to 1 pistons for this build. I will order them probably today and just figure I will have to bore 1mm over what the block is so it will be 83mm.

Last edited by 93h2beg; 12-10-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

In addition to a nicer valvetrain, the ITR head will have mild port work from Honda.
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Old 12-12-2016, 02:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 93h2beg View Post
I bought a car, and a head.

b16 head- supposedly real type r- has upgraded springs and retainers. The pics look very nice. The member who offered it to me was not listing the head, but saw this thread and offered it. Very cool of him.


The car is a 1993 Civic Coupe, 5 speed dx with AC. $400 BUCKS, CLEAN TITLE but non running
It is white with tan interior, I have not personally seen a tan interior civic, it was part of the allure.

Now I wait on shipping... ugh.


I am looking at Supertech 10.6 to 1 pistons for this build. I will order them probably today and just figure I will have to bore 1mm over what the block is so it will be 83mm.
Supertech pistons are 4032 alloy, so just be aware that they are one of the things that won't migrate from 400 to 600+whp. They will offer quieter running and lower oil consumption due to the lower thermal expansion ratio of 4032 vs 2618 but are not as strong as 2618 variants (JE, CP, Wiseco, Manley etc)
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:09 AM   #32
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Supertech pistons are 4032 alloy, so just be aware that they are one of the things that won't migrate from 400 to 600+whp. They will offer quieter running and lower oil consumption due to the lower thermal expansion ratio of 4032 vs 2618 but are not as strong as 2618 variants (JE, CP, Wiseco, Manley etc)
Very good point, indeed.
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

thank you for the info.

I will still probably go with them. I have changed my plans to a build of much a more moderate hp rating. I plan to have this between 400 and 500 HP max.

I want to give a shout out and a props to [email protected] bought parts from him and they were exactly as described. The packaging on them was amazing, even if fed ex tried to damage them they couldn't!

So with a more moderate HP goal, am i still looking at a rams horn exhaust manifold or can I get a good tubular log style? I have A/C and want to keep it





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Old 12-12-2016, 07:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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thank you for the info.

I will still probably go with them. I have changed my plans to a build of much a more moderate hp rating. I plan to have this between 400 and 500 HP max.

I want to give a shout out and a props to [email protected] bought parts from him and they were exactly as described. The packaging on them was amazing, even if fed ex tried to damage them they couldn't!

So with a more moderate HP goal, am i still looking at a rams horn exhaust manifold or can I get a good tubular log style? I have A/C and want to keep it


Well, with the turbo you picked up, you're going to have a helluva time putting a T04S cover with anything A/C related. So, for your goal and needs, your best bet is a "mini-ram" styled exhaust manifold and not some Kooks styled "Ramhorn" and definitely no log-style manifold, neither cast nor tubular.

Your manifold options were limited the minute you got a T04S compressor cover turbo. "Mini-ram" style it is.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:56 PM   #35
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

LOL. Well I guess that solves that! I will do some research and ask questions before I buy. Thank you guys for the input, I am very appreciative.

Just so I know I am on the correct track-
goanutoworks or sheepy type miniram manifolds.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:28 PM   #36
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Originally Posted by 93h2beg View Post
LOL. Well I guess that solves that! I will do some research and ask questions before I buy. Thank you guys for the input, I am very appreciative.

Just so I know I am on the correct track-
goanutoworks or sheepy type miniram manifolds.
Yes, those are the ones we are referencing.
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:47 PM   #37
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Okay well before i buy the caret before the horse.... My machinist called me today and said he spec'd out the block, and it looks as if my block has been decked a bit and says the pistons will poke out .005 of the holes. Now its not that I don't trust him, he is very reputable and such but the little deck height indicator tabs have not even been touched yet... I can't seem to find any real good comprehensive info on what those tabs are supposed to actually mean and how much meat should be above them.

I am going by his shop tomorrow to get more details. Also my next bore would be 83mm, but it seems its hard to find a real good piston meant for high boost at 83mm without going custom.
I have been looking at superTech and they do not offer one that is FI compatible in 83 only 84. The pistons i found online for SuperTec are not meant for FI- there were 4032 aluminum, or so the machinist told me. He said they offer a much stronger setup- he said it is just like a wiseco or CP but have a better skirt design.

I see a lot of pistons that claim they are for FI but either have small wimpy pins, or have valve reliefs that cut out into essentially the outside of the piston-
[img]webkit-fake-url://57221120-8AE7-4E2A-9D85-2715C37EBDC1/imgres.jpg[/img]
This is a generic google pic, but we all know our valves don't go out past the sides of the pistons....
[img]webkit-fake-url://10D20170-7D1E-464D-A4DF-86B5197DD06A/imgres.jpg[/img]
This is supposedly a much better piston design- where the valve reliefs do not go out past the sides of the pistons.

So If the deck has been cut a bunch and I cannot get a good piston setup looks like custom pistons are in my future.
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:52 AM   #38
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Originally Posted by 93h2beg View Post
Okay well before i buy the caret before the horse.... My machinist called me today and said he spec'd out the block, and it looks as if my block has been decked a bit and says the pistons will poke out .005 of the holes. Now its not that I don't trust him, he is very reputable and such but the little deck height indicator tabs have not even been touched yet... I can't seem to find any real good comprehensive info on what those tabs are supposed to actually mean and how much meat should be above them.

I am going by his shop tomorrow to get more details. Also my next bore would be 83mm, but it seems its hard to find a real good piston meant for high boost at 83mm without going custom.
I have been looking at superTech and they do not offer one that is FI compatible in 83 only 84. The pistons i found online for SuperTec are not meant for FI- there were 4032 aluminum, or so the machinist told me. He said they offer a much stronger setup- he said it is just like a wiseco or CP but have a better skirt design.

I see a lot of pistons that claim they are for FI but either have small wimpy pins, or have valve reliefs that cut out into essentially the outside of the piston-
[img]webkit-fake-url://57221120-8AE7-4E2A-9D85-2715C37EBDC1/imgres.jpg[/img]
This is a generic google pic, but we all know our valves don't go out past the sides of the pistons....
[img]webkit-fake-url://10D20170-7D1E-464D-A4DF-86B5197DD06A/imgres.jpg[/img]
This is supposedly a much better piston design- where the valve reliefs do not go out past the sides of the pistons.

So If the deck has been cut a bunch and I cannot get a good piston setup looks like custom pistons are in my future.
CP makes a off-the-shelf 83mm piston for B16A and you even have the choice of 9:1 or 9.8:1 compression. CP-Pistons-B16
Get your engineering guys's opinion on the piston to head clearance and decide from there. The CP's can be specified with an upgraded pin too, but for 400whp the std CP pin is fine.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:53 PM   #39
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

Stopped by the machine shop today- no progress, I get it though. Holidays etc...

I am looking for a radiator for the civic.
My buddy has a big fancy expensive double core aluminum rad on his b16 turbo del sol. Looks nice, works great, maybe a bit too great. His car almost never warms up, it can idle for 20 minutes and barley be moving the gauge.

Recommendations?

Also looking at intercoolers- i read a 15 page thread started by shodan and it did help some, but still didn't answer my questions.

At 400 hp- i guess dang near the smallest garrett would work, and I get that I can't really buy one with hopes to grow into it, as it will be inefficient now or later.
Misimoto better than cxracing or treadstone? Or are they all in the same category?
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Stopped by the machine shop today- no progress, I get it though. Holidays etc...

I am looking for a radiator for the civic.
My buddy has a big fancy expensive double core aluminum rad on his b16 turbo del sol. Looks nice, works great, maybe a bit too great. His car almost never warms up, it can idle for 20 minutes and barley be moving the gauge.

Recommendations?

Also looking at intercoolers- i read a 15 page thread started by shodan and it did help some, but still didn't answer my questions.

At 400 hp- i guess dang near the smallest garrett would work, and I get that I can't really buy one with hopes to grow into it, as it will be inefficient now or later.
Misimoto better than cxracing or treadstone? Or are they all in the same category?

You may have been looking for the "quick & dead" answer, and when I present things, there usually isn't one. What you have to read from it is that you need to see what is important to you for the need.

In your case, there isn't ONE intercooler that's good for 400whp AND be the same for the 800whp setup. They just won't be.. sorry.

But the 400hp Garrett has actually been tested to be efficient up to and over 500whp. (One person on HT used their B16A2 using a 9 yr-old Garrett 400hp intercooler to get about 548whp!! But it was beyond efficiency by 500whp) Unlike the CX Racing, or Mishimoto, or even Treadstone, which are rated to the crankshaft, you're spending good money on the Garrett for a much better return until you need to upgrade.

Please re-read. Especially Pg.3.. It's all spelled out.
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:53 AM   #41
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You may have been looking for the "quick & dead" answer, and when I present things, there usually isn't one. What you have to read from it is that you need to see what is important to you for the need.

In your case, there isn't ONE intercooler that's good for 400whp AND be the same for the 800whp setup. They just won't be.. sorry.

But the 400hp Garrett has actually been tested to be efficient up to and over 500whp. (One person on HT used their B16A2 using a 9 yr-old Garrett 400hp intercooler to get about 548whp!! But it was beyond efficiency by 500whp) Unlike the CX Racing, or Mishimoto, or even Treadstone, which are rated to the crankshaft, you're spending good money on the Garrett for a much better return until you need to upgrade.

Please re-read. Especially Pg.3.. It's all spelled out.
I realize that I will not be able to get an intercooler that I can grow into, after reading your thread and doing more research it became blatantly obvious it is not a one size fits all.

My concerns are more about how do I know which size will work best for me, which one will not have large pressure drops, and still cool very well.
Does a 400 hp intercooler work the same on say 2 liter making 400 at 7000 rpms vs a 1.6 at 10,000 rpms making the same 400 hp?
Or is the hp just a safe Blanket number- saying the air required to make 400 hp can be cooled efficiently by the part. Regardless of engine size, rpms etc...
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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I realize that I will not be able to get an intercooler that I can grow into, after reading your thread and doing more research it became blatantly obvious it is not a one size fits all.

My concerns are more about how do I know which size will work best for me, which one will not have large pressure drops, and still cool very well.
Does a 400 hp intercooler work the same on say 2 liter making 400 at 7000 rpms vs a 1.6 at 10,000 rpms making the same 400 hp?
Or is the hp just a safe Blanket number- saying the air required to make 400 hp can be cooled efficiently by the part. Regardless of engine size, rpms etc...
Well, that is more of a 2 part answer that does have it's "quick & dead" versions.

1) The type of intercooler design is going to be what determines ultimate capability of the intercooler. Surface area size comes into play later. That's why you can have a 400hp Garrett core do much more than a treadstone, Mishimoto, or Precision of the same size. That core uses a bar / plate system that uses 3 rows of louvered fins per core, which together is EXTREMELY efficient, unlike a Mishimoto which uses 2 rows of a plain fin per core of its design. This means that it needs a lot more surface area to do that same thing as the smaller Garrett core.

2) Surface area is what becomes second level of importance after the bore design has been figured out. THEN you know how large of a core you typically need. The less efficient the core design itself is, the more surface area you'll need to make up for the lack of efficiency. Go too large, or get the wrong make, and you get too large of a pressure drop with a super large core. This is why you see CXRacing have up to about 8psi of pressure drop (not good) from end tank to endtank, and you'll have to run that much ore boost pressure in order to make up for it.
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Old 12-23-2016, 10:11 PM   #43
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I talked with superrich- the pistons I referenced before-P4-H83-P6the are made of 4032- they claim are good for 4-500 hp under 30lbs of boost. They also I recommend upgrading the wrist pins to tool steel, or maybe thicker tool steel.

I may just go this route as it will give me good compression with out having to buy and wait for a custom piston... that seems to be the only other option.

What about a balancer???? is stock okay? do I need to upgrade to a fluidamper or something similar?
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Old 12-24-2016, 05:16 AM   #44
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What about a balancer???? is stock okay? do I need to upgrade to a fluidamper or something similar?
For 400-600whp stock is fine
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:44 AM   #45
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Ok well I found a tuner I really like and hit it off with. Very friendly, knowledgeable and took time to sit down with me and discuss his process after his shop closed.

Pretty excited about that.

I believe my engine machinist order me a set of 83mm Arias pistons 9 to 1ish. little bit low on the compression, but at 83mm there choices are pretty slim.

I am looking at the 450 LPH walbro E85 fuel pump- I will run it off a separate relay next to it to increase available power to the unit.

I have tagged a 600 hp Garrett intercooler for the build, and plan to paint it black, along with the intercooler piping if I cannot find it black already.

I have a tail waste gate, and I am thinking of an adjustable greddy style type r BOV.

Blox intake manifold and Throttle body at 70mm.

advanced ignition mini ram manifold- I may go with a rams horn style though...

The engine has ARP head studs and main studs, and reconditioned eagle rods.

Does anything here standout as a big no no?
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:27 AM   #46
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Looks like everything is starting to fall in place for you! Nice to find a tuner to allow you to be part of the process, instead of just dropping everything off and hoping for the best!
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:47 AM   #47
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Mini ram > ramhorn
That is unless you are going for the 800hp
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:59 AM   #48
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Man I loved reading this thread. There are some really good, stand up dudes in here that are more than willing to lend a helping hand to people who want to learn and do it right! Glad to see that your build is coming along and good luck with it all!
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Old 01-03-2017, 09:13 PM   #49
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Yes, there are some great ppl willing to lend a hand (or opinion).

So with that being said-

I am now looking at a sheepy mini ram manifold- from what I can gather they are very good products.

my other choice is the inline pro manifold- these claim to flow very well up top, and being I have a small engine (1.7 technically) it seems that maybe this would be the best route. The cost on the 2 is nearly the same, so the price isn't the reason to go either way.

If I do a mini ram or the inline pro- I think I would get excellent spool time (vs a rams horn, or top mount) and still flow enough for maybe 10k shifts.

Thoughts anyone?
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Old 01-03-2017, 09:26 PM   #50
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Default Re: What is the Difference in build components between 400whp-800whp?

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Mini ram > ramhorn
That is unless you are going for the 800hp
ramhorns have there place .....there not as bad as some would like you to think, and definitely more power up top.

I think as far as inline pro vs sheepy either will work just fine. Mini Ram would give slighty more up top without changing spool all that much. Im leaning more twards the inline for a street car tho, one of these days im gonna buy another inline pro and give it a try I just wish they came with V-band for the WG instead of the older 2 bolt style. I believe they were designed for a 5 bolt hotside turbo perhaps shodan can confirm this, I had one a couple years back but had issues with my 4 bolt DP
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