yellowhonda88

Hey all, been awhile since I posted last. I am looking for a turbo cam for my stock block B16 turbo. I have a silly question. I am looking for a cam to serve better as a top end turbo cam, as well as a better idle lope... I used to run all motor non-vtecs and it used to drive me nuts but now that I no longer drive my turbo honda every day (or 500 miles a year for that matter) I want that nasty idle back...are there any turbo cams that have a silly loapy idle for B16's? THanks all

Dunc

I don't know for the B16, but in my B18 I am using the Skunk2 turbo cams. I also don't have the catalytic converter on so that helps a little bit with the loppy idle. But yea, those cams give me a loppy idle.

boosted92

throw some skunk2 pro1's in there for a choppy idle.

Joseph Davis

You can lock the pins in the VTEC assembly and run the VTEC lobe all the time.

Dunc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can lock the pins in the VTEC assembly and run the VTEC lobe all the time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is a reason why Honda engineers designed the motors to not run in vtec all the time. That would not be a wise decision.

Joseph Davis

Eh, one of the two heads I know of it's been done to came off a carboned up B17 with a rod sticking out of it's block... it pops in and out of VTEC whenever it feels like it if you try to run things the way Honduh engineers designed the motors to run. One free head, completely fucked up, bolted to a backwoods sleeved LS block with egg shaped bores - fill it full of racegas, crank the boost, give it hell.

So, since you appear to know something I don't, how's it going to come apart on us?

Dunc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Eh, one of the two heads I know of it's been done to came off a carboned up B17 with a rod sticking out of it's block... it pops in and out of VTEC whenever it feels like it if you try to run things the way Honduh engineers designed the motors to run. One free head, completely fucked up, bolted to a backwoods sleeved LS block with egg shaped bores - fill it full of racegas, crank the boost, give it hell.

So, since you appear to know something I don't, how's it going to come apart on us?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Are you talking to me? I'm just having a really tough time following what you are saying (grammar wise and such). Basically, put the car on the dyno and make a pull. Then have vtec to engage at like 1500rpm. You'll immediately notice the difference when the motor sounds awful, has a hard time revving up at all, and you'll see a difference in the torque & powerband (the all vtec run will be lower in the low rpms). So there definitely is a reason why the <U>Honda</U>, not Honduh , engineers designed it this way. There is also a reason why other large manufacturers have done this (i.e. BMW). Plus, why would everyone not be doing this if it actually was such a great thing to do? I'm sure you may have seen it, and hopefully have read the supporting information behind it. Click the following link and pay careful attention between 0:11-0:15 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcT_ZyY3F0k

^^^That it your answer why running vtec all the time is probably one of the worst things/advice anyone could take off of this forum. If you take that advice as actually being useful then you could also remove all the oil from the engine since that'll lighten it up a bit.

Joseph Davis

Sorry about that, Dunc, but I've been up for a couple days, and I have trouble communicating in a linear manner even when fully rested. Let's dispense with the reasons why I would do such a thing, but rest assured I have good engineering reasons. As such, I can condense my logic as follows:


Newsflash! Cars that lope at idle generally don't have any bottom end. Welcome to lumpy cams, and how **** gets done with the 99.97% of engines in the world that aren't crippled with V-Tech.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if you are worried about loss of power below 3500-4000 rpms you are a woman. It's not like there is any power down there to be had, thus --&gt; turbos.

Dunc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sorry about that, Dunc, but I've been up for a couple days, and I have trouble communicating in a linear manner even when fully rested. Let's dispense with the reasons why I would do such a thing, but rest assured I have good engineering reasons. As such, I can condense my logic as follows:
</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha, fair enough. I followed this one much better

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Newsflash! Cars that lope at idle generally don't have any bottom end. Welcome to lumpy cams, and how **** gets done with the 99.97% of engines in the world that aren't crippled with V-Tech.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Does the newflash apply to top fuel dragsters that are implementing v-tech's phone systems in their cars?
If you know or find any links to data/films that support this view point post back sometime because I would definitely be interested in reading up about it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know about the rest of you, but if you are worried about loss of power below 3500-4000 rpms you are a woman. It's not like there is any power down there to be had, thus --&gt; turbos. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed, but torque wins races while horsepower boosts the ego. What I'm getting at is running vtec all the time just isn't a viable option since you need power down low to get going. Plus if you are just driving at 6000+rpms all the time even while launching then what would be the point in locking vtec in the first place? It wouldn't give you anymore power up top....it just helps down low.

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Agreed, but torque wins races while horsepower boosts the ego.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Horsepower is a function of torque; what you just said means nothing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I'm getting at is running vtec all the time just isn't a viable option since you need power down low to get going. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Show me one almighty V-Tech powered Honduh in any competitive racing class on the planet that has an applicable powerband below 4K.

Your momma, however, needs to take off smoothly from traffic lights, in the below 4K rpm range, with blistering 17 second acceleration when she goes to the grocery store to pick up food for the family meal you smash with great relish every Sunday.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Plus if you are just driving at 6000+rpms all the time even while launching then what would be the point in locking vtec in the first place?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The OP just wanted a funky idle - my route is the cheapest and most expedient. I at no point commented on whether or not it made sense.

In my case, the heads in question are abused pieces that pop in and out of VTEC because they are completely fucked up. With the first one, we tried to replace rocker arm and pin assemblies, clean oil passages with solvent and compressed air, tweaking the oil pump to 100-115 psi at point of VTEC engagement, run thicker oil, etc, all we did was throw a lot of work into failure. Complete waste of time.

Enter a low buck built LS short block. Local redneck machine shop did a visibly... ah, "interesting" job of sleeving it with Dartion drop-ins. The Eagles that went in it were used, etc. It had some problems over it's lifespan and now has egg shaped bores, but it was pushing 400 whp reliably for the last 5-6K miles before it was removed from the car. The guy who owned the engine didn't trust any part in the shorty in another build, and wanted to see how much power he could get out of it in a blaze of glory, but didn't want to toast a perfectly good head (the reason why he pulled the engine). I hooked him up with the FUBAR head from the previous paragraph. Should be a good marriage of pieces, and do 500 whp drag car duty with no tears when it comes apart.

So, yes, doing sleazy tricks to the rocker arm assemblies is justifiable.

PS - if you ever mock my 900Mhz cellular technology again, the next time I come to Cincy to visit Blundell I'll take a pee in your number three cylinder.

yellowhonda88

hahaha. I just laughed pretty hard reading all that. In short, I have an open Dp and NO TQ below 3600 anyway...I just want to have that fun lumpy idle back...I could car less because about low end because a B16 has none (no wars please, I know with the cash it can happen....sorta) and no, I dont want to lock vtec in. I was just looking for a vtec turb cam that has a routy primary profile. THanks everyone.

Dunc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Show me one almighty V-Tech powered Honduh in any competitive racing class on the planet that has an applicable powerband below 4K. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ever heard of auto-x or road racing?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your momma, however, needs to take off smoothly from traffic lights, in the below 4K rpm range, with blistering 17 second acceleration when she goes to the grocery store to pick up food for the family meal you smash with great relish every Sunday. </TD></TR></TABLE>
riiiight. Well then to the OP, is this a strict <U>drag</U> car only or is it a street car or other form of race car? If yes to street, then looks like this is still not a good idea.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The OP just wanted a funky idle - my route is the cheapest and most expedient. I at no point commented on whether or not it made sense.</TD></TR></TABLE>
haha good point. Cheap...yes, makes sense...no.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">PS - if you ever mock my 900Mhz cellular technology again, the next time I come to Cincy to visit Blundell I'll take a pee in your number three cylinder. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not making fun of the technology, phones are useful for communication right? They just don't have a place in Honda engines. Is it really necessary to resort to being an e-thug? By all means feel free to visit Blundar . If he's a friend of yours then I'm sure he'd be glad to see you. Anyways, I'm done with this now useless conversation. It's very hard to have a legitimate argument when the other person is unable to provide any scientific data. You have provided nothing to back up anything that you have said and are still continuing to lack with each post. So while I can appreciate your opininated hypothesis, it not valid until you can provide some kind of research & data to make me want to believe your view. Therefore, enjoy your stay at Honda-Tech JD and god luck to your camshaft quest yellowhonda88


Modified by Dunc at 12:58 PM 1/23/2007

ccivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm not too worried about the e-thug stuff so if you'd like come on by and visit Blundar. If he's a friend then I'm sure he'd be glad to see you. Plus there is plenty to do in Cincy, so by all means feel free to visit . </TD></TR></TABLE>

Plenty to do in Cincy? Please don't mislead these poor, unknowing strangers into thing they'll have a good time here!!

Kidding. Let me know if you ever come to the Nati, Joseph.. I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and Dave.

for lumpy idles!
for not being able to get your car to idle!! ( like mine! )

Joseph Davis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ever heard of auto-x or road racing? </TD></TR></TABLE>

You lug a peaky 4 cylinder in it's midrange when you autocross? Let me guess, your times suck? I have friends who set FTOD in their class, and with a peaky engine like a Honduh they are in 2nd or 3rd gear tached out the whole time.

I fold on the roadracing bit, though; I've never been.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not too worried about the e-thug stuff</TD></TR></TABLE>

I weigh 145 pounds, when I walk in a room people get all quiet and ****, obviously unaccustomed to being confronted by a someone as grizzled and manly as I. You best keep a respectful tongue in your mouth, boy, or you'll taste the backside of my hand.

Uhm, yeah, reality check here? I couldn't think of anything more rediculous to say than threating to pee in your #3. I call that humor. If you take that as an attempt at e-thugging you need to seek professional help; tell the nice doc your feeling a mite delusional.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You have no scientific data to back up anything that you have said and are saying</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, you are the one lacking perspective, experience, and theory. Yes, cam dictates powerband, and I posit that bitching about specific output of the low rpm range in a turbo forum is inane.

The only "scientific data" that you brought to the table is a consumer level marketing blurb meant to get the buying public all excited about the buzzword V-tech so they can all go out and buy some. It in no way shape or form reflects the reality of the situation.

The reality of the matter is that almighty V-Tech is a joke.

- DOHC V-Tech cylinder heads have oversized intake valves and hogged out lazy ports. Look at StyleTeg's high CR 404'd LS build - equivalent CR and (hi) cam profile as ITR - pay close attention to the conVEX nature of his power curve, quite unlike the conCAVE ITR powerband it is di-rectally compared to. The dirty secret of the matter is that up to 180 whp the LS head is superior for NA, because not only do you hit target peak power numbers easily but there is *substantially* more power below peak. But, this is a significantly higher lift and longer duration cam profile that should cost low end power... right?

- Bisi went non V-Tech for a reason. If you make a very, very careful sift of his post history he quite specifically states the added reciprocating weight of the V-Tech assemblies and exactly how much power robbing drag this creates.

- I've been in and out of college, mostly engineering curriculums as I suck at underwater basket weaving type activities, for the last 16 years. By the time I was your age I'd have had a PHD if I was particularly interested in pieces of paper, or what people thought I should do with my life. All of this you are going to take as a big fat call out in re mental dicksize, but I just want you to rest assured I have plenty of scientific data stuffed between my ears, thank you.

- I've tuned a couple hundred cars, experienced several different flavors of fast, and consulted on some pretty sick ****. Have you tuned many cars yet? &lt;-- this is the actual call out, I figured you wanted one

Oh, wait, I almost forgot! My own personal turbocar has the most delicious lump to it's idle, and is completely devoid of V-Tech - or the silly cylinder heads that are supposed to have it.

yellowhonda88

wow, this is getting pretty silly. to clear up a couple things; the car only gets driven like its stolen. I just go out and beat the crap out of it every couple weeks so its city manners are of no concern to me. Back to the topic, looking for a turbo cam that has gains up top but has a nice lumpy idle. thanks all

lambertincorp

dont the toda vtec killa cams put the car in vtec all the time?

if that is so what is the difference between those cams and locking the cams?

thanks