It's as simple as this, post up a dyno graph with hp, tq, rpm & a/f. If the a/f curve looks like a roller coaster, yeah it's the tuner.



Modified by backpurge at 11:08 PM 6/8/2006

 

Your part throttle AFRs are why I require all of my tuning customers to do at least an hour if not two of street tuning. That **** fouls plugs.
the end.

 

your forgetting about timing. cars dont make good power with 35 degree's of timing at 10psi lol

 

backpurge, turbo-charged is referencing an actual map from my tuner (35 total degrees at 10psi)




Modified by turbotime at 1:32 AM 6/10/2006

 

I am forced to conclude honda-tech is dumb and I shouldn't even waste my time treating people like they are capable of drawing reasonable conclusions from sound evidence. This thread is insane. I feel sorry for people elsewhere in the country - here in podunk Cincinnati where everything is 15 years behind (Twain), even the shitty tuners know better than to run 35deg timing@10psi... Wow is all I have to say.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">here in podunk Cincinnati where everything is 15 years behind (Twain), even the shitty tuners know better than to run 35deg timing@10psi... Wow is all I have to say.</TD></TR></TABLE>


thus the reason for this post.

 

How is his engine together at 35* at 10psi? I mean really. I don't buy that for a second. That means instead of retarding the timing, he took it and advanced it 10*. Again, I don't buy it. You'd be pinging and knocking all over the free world running 35* BTDC at 10psi.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How is his engine together at 35* at 10psi? I mean really. I don't buy that for a second. That means instead of retarding the timing, he took it and advanced it 10*. Again, I don't buy it. You'd be pinging and knocking all over the free world running 35* BTDC at 10psi.</TD></TR></TABLE>

kinda like the dude that made 630 whp on pump gas with 18 degrees of timing...

weird eh?

 

it was on another car that was adressed promptly. the car was bucking popping spuddering etc. like i said before...i dont know the guy.....im not trying to start anything...im just stating what i pulled from an ECU. hell who knows maybe he somehow uploaded the wrong program or something? i'd like to think from things ive heard from him in the past that it was a mistake.....but either way thats what was in the car...could have been an expensive mistake. it was also on an h22 which like timing..but nothing likes THAT much timing. who knows....like i asked earlier, post up the timing map!

 

I been trying to get a hold of the timing map, i asked him for it and also asked about the rich afrs here and this is what he told me:

For starters, people that say 14.7 is optimal, don't know how to tune cars.
This time around we can do some street tuning to help out the rich part
throttle, but like I told you before, at idle it will be rich.

Does that strike anyone as odd?

 

My car idles rich. I run 14.7 down the road though no boost anyways Like was stated, if you tune for wot then its not gonna run super at partial. Course, i've had good success getting a decent out of boost map so far. I don't know.

However, you had it tuned and then you went home and fixed the leak, which could mess up your tune. I'd think it'd actually lean it out some, but who knows. Just something to think about. What are you running, did you say already? Why not tune it some yourself. Messing with the no boost map isn't overly risky.

 

Hmmm id seems youd be better off with an FMU ahhaa jk. Try and find a different tuner and possibly a dynapac dyno. Your numbers are on par for a descent N/a Build but id be worried if i were you. Just go over basics, sounds maybe like u could be have leakdown problems if your getting good boost to the motor.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was on another car that was adressed promptly. the car was bucking popping spuddering etc. like i said before...i dont know the guy.....im not trying to start anything...im just stating what i pulled from an ECU. hell who knows maybe he somehow uploaded the wrong program or something? i'd like to think from things ive heard from him in the past that it was a mistake.....but either way thats what was in the car...could have been an expensive mistake. it was also on an h22 which like timing..but nothing likes THAT much timing. who knows....like i asked earlier, post up the timing map! </TD></TR></TABLE>

What was the base distributor timing? What was the base timing set at in Hondata?

Makes a difference...Example: 35deg with a dizzy thats retarded 10deg...is only 25 Actual.

Oh yea, sounds to me like the car isn't hitting VTEC...

 

car definitely is hitting vtec, you can hear it right before the wastegate opens around 5k rpms, its crystal clear on the CTR cams...

Oh and when we tuned my dizzy timing was ??? I know it was off but he checked it with a timing light and then programmed that on the hondata or something so he didint need to adjust the acutal dizzy....

I mean i DID have a boost leak from a nipple on the compressor but i am also running &lt;12.8 ALL over the map, &lt;10 in many places, my wideband may be dirty or somethin but other then that....

I replaced the plugs last night with new 7e's and cyls 1, 2, 3 all looked pretty clean (could still see serial #'s) but 4 was soot black, maybe the plug got fouled but i know before the tuning i could see the top of the cyl on #4... oh and i throw code1 [o2 content] CEL's alllllllll day everyday

idk, well see what kinda numbers i make tomorrow diff. tuner


Modified by turbotime at 7:10 AM 6/9/2006

 

consider a compression test before re-tuning...

 

I usually dont respond to these kinds of threads, since most people seem to have their minds made up, but I think that I should say something here.

First of all I had about 4-5 pulls on this car. On each pull there was some sort of mechanical issue that we needed to look at and on the last pull the alternator belt snapped. I think its very unreasonable to ask anyone to come up with a perfect fueling map based on those kinds of conditions.

Second, you could technically say he's still running on the base map since I really didnt have the chance to do any tuning. I only had time to clean up the base map a good amount primarily at idle and part throttle, (I understand it is still rich but it was not as rich as it was beforehand) and make sure under boost it wouldnt lean out.

And as far as that 35deg at 10psi thing goes, that sure doesnt sound like me or anyone else that has a clue.

 

^^ That part is understandable, *I* couldn't make a perfect tune in 4 problematic runs. But a tuner who should have a few reference maps should be able to make more than that on 9psi. There have been loads of sohc's running tiny turbos doing 200+ - and thats one dyno shot to find power output, not dynoing to tune.

About the 14.7 stoich deal - I seriously hope you were making assumptions about his question. High vacuum should be close to 14.7, low vacuum no more than 13.5, boost ranging from 12.5-10.5 (depending on very low to med boost). I know there have been a few cases where the dyno had a back AFR pickup, and a wideband o2 was used instead. Maybe that's it. But seriously, you can usually get away with a basicly stock map for 90% of vacuum.

As blundar said, if vacuum map is richer than 10:1, you could be fouling your plugs. Fouled plugs don't make power very well.

 

Actually, let me clarify a bit.

We made 6 pulls. The first few we had no boost because the boost controller was incorrectly installed. The last 2-3 pulls there was a boost leak and of course the final alternator belt failure and the collapsing vacuum lines.

Having AF at 14.7 in high vacuum tends to cause a good amount of drivability problems. A figure closer to 13.5 produces much better drivability. In boost I like 11.5-12.0 personally. Some people like 12.5 and thats fine, I just prefer it a bit richer as a margin.

When dealing with large injectors its not going to be easy to produce a perfect base map. Every motor will react differently and produce different result even if the same maps are used. Different types of injectors have a lot to do with this. Even a basically stock basemap wont produce good results with injectors that are 3x the size.

Given the situation and the time I was given there wasnt really much I could do. I had already started to work on the vacuum areas of the map but wasnt able to get very far. I think its pretty unfair to judge me based on 2 problem laden pulls.

 

on the map that was on my hondata it had 28* of timing @ ~9psi and injectors were at 99% duty at 12psi but there was a boost cut at 10psi so it would never see that i still dunno why u would cycle them that high


Modified by turbotime at 12:50 AM 6/10/2006

 

This is the second thread in under a week with the person wondering if his tuner was tuning correctly.

This is also the second thread in under a week that the person wondering if his tuner was tuning correctly had mechanical issues with the vehicle that compromised his tune considerably. Although, I have to admit, this wasn't as dumb as Mr. low impedance injectors.

 

well i switched not becuase i didnt think he was tuning correctly/adequeatly, thats only part of it....

He is very hard to contact (email only, no phone) his answers to questions are very short, if he answers them at all, during tuning he provides little to no feedback as to what he doing in the tune, he is only around on weekends, when asked for info about the tune i was given he provided none, when wastegate vac lines were collapsing he said it wasnt an issue but i insisted we change the lines, he does no street tuning (previous tune), its just a variety of factors that led me to seek another tuner.

Tempest changed my oil, cleaned my horribly blackened plugs, fixed my oil return, did a compression test, verified everything was working right, THEN started tuning. Also throughout the tuning process i was kept informed about exactly what was going on (Adding timing, adding fuel, increasing boost, boost falling off, creeping, etc) Also after the tune he took the car out and drove it around quite a bit to make sure the tune was good on the street as well as the dyno, and he managed to pick up 30whp on the 8.7psi setting while leaning it out and retarding the timing 8*, also he is availible by phone is i have any questions or concerns, he is availible during the week, he spent extra time on my car to make sure it had the most optimal tune possible given the ignition problems, and he stopped tuning as soon as the ignition problems cropped up, looking out for the wellbeing of my car

So its not JUST the "map" part of the tuning process that led me to switch, its the fact that I need to feel comfortable with the person who is making or breaking the build i poured endless amounts of $$, time, and labor into, and my tuner just wasnt providing me with the level of confidence i was seeking.


Modified by turbotime at 1:36 AM 6/10/2006

 

yeah to Joe..... now get my car running

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sgT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, let me clarify a bit.

We made 6 pulls. The first few we had no boost because the boost controller was incorrectly installed. The last 2-3 pulls there was a boost leak and of course the final alternator belt failure and the collapsing vacuum lines.

Having AF at 14.7 in high vacuum tends to cause a good amount of drivability problems. A figure closer to 13.5 produces much better drivability. In boost I like 11.5-12.0 personally. Some people like 12.5 and thats fine, I just prefer it a bit richer as a margin.

When dealing with large injectors its not going to be easy to produce a perfect base map. Every motor will react differently and produce different result even if the same maps are used. Different types of injectors have a lot to do with this. Even a basically stock basemap wont produce good results with injectors that are 3x the size.

Given the situation and the time I was given there wasnt really much I could do. I had already started to work on the vacuum areas of the map but wasnt able to get very far. I think its pretty unfair to judge me based on 2 problem laden pulls. </TD></TR></TABLE>

-"Having AF at 14.7 in high vacuum tends to cause a good amount of drivability problems"
-"When dealing with large injectors its not going to be easy to produce a perfect base map. Every motor will react differently and produce different result even if the same maps are used. Different types of injectors have a lot to do with this. Even a basically stock basemap wont produce good results with injectors that are 3x the size."

Are you serious?????
I hope you're just jocking....if not you should start looking for another job, sorry.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrixt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-"Having AF at 14.7 in high vacuum tends to cause a good amount of drivability problems"
-"When dealing with large injectors its not going to be easy to produce a perfect base map. Every motor will react differently and produce different result even if the same maps are used. Different types of injectors have a lot to do with this. Even a basically stock basemap wont produce good results with injectors that are 3x the size."

Are you serious?????
I hope you're just jocking....if not you should start looking for another job, sorry.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What are you talking about...he's right. Except I think he meant low vacuum when he said high...You can't just throw a 'hondata basemap' on a big injector car and expect it to fire up and run awesome...Now...if you have a basemap of previous tuned cars that are similar...speeds the process along very well.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sgT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, let me clarify a bit.

We made 6 pulls. The first few we had no boost because the boost controller was incorrectly installed. The last 2-3 pulls there was a boost leak and of course the final alternator belt failure and the collapsing vacuum lines.

Given the situation and the time I was given there wasnt really much I could do. I had already started to work on the vacuum areas of the map but wasnt able to get very far. I think its pretty unfair to judge me based on 2 problem laden pulls. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's understandable. 2-3 pulls isn't all that easy to make a good tune.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sgT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Different types of injectors have a lot to do with this. Even a basically stock basemap wont produce good results with injectors that are 3x the size.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I understand that, but even a modified motor can be brought to life with a basemap (scaled for injector size), and then you rescale the entire map to compensate for injector design. I went from a d16 w/235's (oem pintle) to 780's (siemens ball), all I did was scale the map, then add 15% overall and all of vacuum was very drivable. I've done that to a couple cars, and its by far the best way to start off. For some friends that came to me with crappy basemaps, I've had better luck using a stock map & proceding with the above steps. But to each his own. The difference is I don't charge by the hour.