turbotime

Ok I am thinking of switchin tuners cause even though im pretty sure my tuner is knowledgeable the results im getting from our tunes are dissappointing at best. I have tuned with him twice now, first time he got me 200whp/160tq on my built b17 @ 9psi. Second time around (After rebuild) made about the same power, 200whp/170tq @ 9psi, then i broke a belt and we had to stop (so its possible he might have found more power @9).

Issue is im seeing similar setups to mine easily making 250+whp at similar boost levels, and that is ALOT more power, and im upping the boost 10 18psi this next tune session, i want to know that it is being tuned right. If my setup can make that power I need a tuner who can get me there and I just feel like my tuner isnt cutting it given the current results....

Thinkin of switchin to tempest racing for tuning...

What would you do in my position?


Modified by turbotime at 1:30 AM 6/10/2006

turbotime

oh and on our second tuning session we only got 3 or 4 pulls in before the belt broke, maybe i should give him another chance? i just dont want to waste my money.... tuning + dyno = $$$$$$

hybrid_KJ

Sounds like your car has issues other than the tune. Either electrically or mechanically. Are you running an MSD? If you are ditch it and get a new igniter before your retune. I've seen very similar results from cars on msd ignitions.

turbotime

stock ignition, no issues at all, egts normal, bkr7e sparks, brand new rotor, cap, wires, dizzy is almost brand new. No missing or bogging, NO blowby at all, engine is pristine, freshly rebuilt

new alternator too

Turbo-charged

bring the car by and i'll take a look at the program if you want (tempest racing) to see if anything looks out of the ordinary. where are you guys tuning the car? hp works? keep in mind some dyno's read much lower than others.

i dont know steve but i have seen a few of his programs. ja mudds prelude was originally tuned by steve and i started all over again and im pretty sure ja was pleased with the results. i dont know the guy so im not going to say anything other than that, but i'd be glad to take a look and see if it apears to be a tuning issue or possibly a mechanical issue. ive seen some very agressive timing maps from him....and then ive also seen cars that seem to run ok.

what are the specs on your set up? i just made 310 on a bone stock b16 around the same boost level as you with a full race kit....i do agree your numbers seem a little low. could be motor, could be tuning, could just be the dyno. let me know if i can be of any help

crxnj

you're in newark,nj ,,you know xenocron isnt that far from you and tunes good..

Dunc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_KJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sounds like your car has issues other than the tune. Either electrically or mechanically. Are you running an MSD? If you are ditch it and get a new igniter before your retune. I've seen very similar results from cars on msd ignitions.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've sat here for like 5 minutes trying to figure out a way to put this nicely...but I can't figure it out haha. That was a bad post. First, the guy said nothing even remotely close to having a possible electrical or mechanical problem and then you jump to conclusions as this being the issue? That just doesn't make any sense. Then you claim it's an MSD ignition causing a lack of 50whp? Again, that is basically ridiculous. So you're saying that if I switch from my MSD to say M&W, I'll see a gain of 50whp+? ...highly doubtful

I don't know (nor do I really care that much) what's up with MSD ignitions because I see people always having problems with them. I have a system on my car and have had <U>not one problem</U> in over a year. Perhaps people are not following the directions closely enough...or more likely the quality of the installation is what is effecting it. No one can deny the fact that Honda's have a prime target of young kids and young kids who also have a poor sense of proper/clean installations.

blundar

what kind of dyno is being used? not all are equal
what kind of turbo setup is on the car? the numbers ppl see are very much related to the turbocharger they use.

More information please.

DJ Gurgla GSR

like blundar said.... turbo specs please

turbotime

hey guys sorry for the lack of info, dyno was a dynojet, setup:

B17A1
B16 Head
Omni Springs/Retainers
00 CTR Cams
9:1 Wiseco @ 81.5
Crower Rods

Walbro 255hp
B&M Commandflo
Precision 780cc
Hondata s200b

Drag t3/t4 57trim 63ar
Drag Charge Pipe
HKS SSQ
Tial 35mm
3" Downpipe to 3" Exhaust
8x24x3.5" thick intercooler
Revhard Manifold

Am I missing anything?

crxnj

man you should be making more then 200whp at 10psi with that setup..something is wrong either with the tuning or engine itself ..like i said take to xenocron he is in nj not far from you since you're in newark

is that turbo a E or B ?

turbotime

im in MD right now if i go to another tuner it will be tempest... its def. the tune cause like i said that engine is mint; no blowby (i have a catchcan, doesnt have a drop in it yet) or anything, no smoking, weird noises, bogging or hesitation, nothing, just runnin rich like all the time [tune] 500miles on the rebuild.....

crxnj

how about the clutch ? is it upgraded for the power level? nothing else i can think of though besieds a bad tune ,,has this guy tuned hondas before? what was the a/f ratio at?

turbotime

i got a stage 2 clutch, 6 puck sprung, how would i know if the clutch was slipping? drives normal..... no weird loss of power or slippage, course ive never driven a car with a slipping clutch but i would think it would be pretty clear?

crxnj

yeah its pretty clear when the clutch is slipping,,it would be all good then bang the revs would just shoot up and you wouldnt really be moving..plus you could smell it..but a stage2 pressure plate and 6puck clutch should be able handle some power

turbotime

yeah ugghh i wish i could just know it will be tuned right and im not wasting my money thats why im thinkin ill be goin to tempest, especially if my tuner uses aggressive timing i dont want that


Modified by turbotime at 1:30 AM 6/10/2006

turbotime

i already got a tune scheduled with my tuner for this saturday, im gonna give him one more shot and see how it does. Just for reference given my setup at 18psi what would you think timing retard for lb of boost would be? also what should total timing at full boost be?

I know ou cant give dead-on numbers, im just looking for a ballpark so if he tries to get real aggressive i can know [since i know **** about tuning]


Modified by turbotime at 1:31 AM 6/10/2006

turbotime

im trying to get teh dyno graph from the 200whp run, ill post it up here as soon as i get it

Turbo-charged

see if he will give you a timing map as well....or atleast what numbers he is running on the high cam at 10psi

nowtype

I have $1 on bad turbo, leaky charge pipes, or some bad vaccum leak. I don't know anything about this Steve fellow, but any moron can get 250whp out of your setup. Its not rocket science. Add some fuel, retard the timing, put the car on the dyno. That leads me to believe you have underlying issues or the dyno just reads significantly lower than most others.

jdmbb6-t

If your not satisfied with his tuning then why go back..... it seems like your waiting for him to make a mistake on your car by the stuff your posting "if he gets real aggressive with the tuning/timing." ( which means you dont trust him)

turbotime

lets just say im leary... i emailed him asking for the maps and stuff well see what i can get

there was a small boost leak from the reference nipple on the compressor, but we were still getting to full boost and it was holding, just spolled a lil later. I fixed the leak and it spools 1k rpms earlier but becuase its so damn rich its still fine boostin earlier, afrs are 12 or less all the time, vac to boost is like 10 or less (wideband reads RICH) and once it boost it hovers around 11.5

Ive never seen it read 14 or leaner while on the throttle in any degree, ever

I thought out of boost it should be at like 14.7

Turbo-charged

deleted....PM'ed instead

nowtype

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbotime &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lets just say im leary... i emailed him asking for the maps and stuff well see what i can get

there was a small boost leak from the reference nipple on the compressor, but we were still getting to full boost and it was holding, just spolled a lil later. I fixed the leak and it spools 1k rpms earlier but becuase its so damn rich its still fine boostin earlier, afrs are 12 or less all the time, vac to boost is like 10 or less (wideband reads RICH) and once it boost it hovers around 11.5

Ive never seen it read 14 or leaner while on the throttle in any degree, ever

I thought out of boost it should be at like 14.7 </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well he tuned your car on the dynojet. You don't get part throttle tuning on a dynojet. Its the way things go. Dynojet tuning = wot tuning. You can make some assumptions that the fuel should look a certain way, but as far as I'm concerned part throttle maps should be tuned/tweaked on the street. You can get a part throttle map pretty solid on your steady state dynos, but they will always need slight tweaking on the street.

The next issue is your wrong assumption with a boost leak. Boost leaks kill power. There have been numerous situations where the turbo would reach the pressure it "should" yet the leak bleeds off enough air to cause significant power loss. Any vaccum leak will hurt power significantly. The sheer fact your turbo spooled 1000rpms faster after fixing the leak shows the leak was pretty damn significant and I'd bet that $1.00 that was your cause of power loss.

Again, stop blaming the tuner all the time. You admit the car had a boost leak. Unless he installed the part that leaked, thats your fault. The boost leak caused the power loss. The power loss caused your disapointment. In the end, take the blame and stop indirectly blaming him. Man up.

turbotime

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nowtype &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Again, stop blaming the tuner all the time. You admit the car had a boost leak. Unless he installed the part that leaked, thats your fault. The boost leak caused the power loss. The power loss caused your disapointment. In the end, take the blame and stop indirectly blaming him. Man up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I admit the boost leak caused some loss in power and yes, the leak was my fault. But my car never ever sees anything leaner than 12 a/f and the partial throttle is pretty good, doesnt bog or hesitate.

Im not saying its 100% his fault at all, im just wondering if based on these factors/situations do ppl think i should stick with him. Im stickin with him and tuning it on 9 psi again saturday, well see how it goes, if i make anything less than 250whp on 9psi im gonna stop it there and go to another tuner.

I mean when you smell the stink of gas everywhere you go and you have to fillup 4 times in 600miles you know it aint the engines fault....