radiator thickness vs width....
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radiator thickness vs width....
i am just trying to sort out a new custom alloy radiator for my car but these are the problems...
At the moment my car will overheat when racing on the track if i run with a thermostat and a bumper, and also without a thermostat and with a bumper, but is fine when i take the bumper off with no thermostat.
So i have mocked up this new radiator:
The core will be 620mm wide x 25mm thick x 313mm high (yea, isnt very thick, but its all i can fit as you can see in the pics, the bit of wood is 35mm thick, but with alloy radiators the tanks have to be wider than the tank, so the tanks are 35mm thick and core is 25mm thick :-? )
So who thinks the larger surface area radiator vs my smaller half size radiator (400ish mm wide x 450ish tall x 42mm thick) will cool my car more?
At the moment my car will overheat when racing on the track if i run with a thermostat and a bumper, and also without a thermostat and with a bumper, but is fine when i take the bumper off with no thermostat.
So i have mocked up this new radiator:
The core will be 620mm wide x 25mm thick x 313mm high (yea, isnt very thick, but its all i can fit as you can see in the pics, the bit of wood is 35mm thick, but with alloy radiators the tanks have to be wider than the tank, so the tanks are 35mm thick and core is 25mm thick :-? )
So who thinks the larger surface area radiator vs my smaller half size radiator (400ish mm wide x 450ish tall x 42mm thick) will cool my car more?
#2
Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (haydenpothoven)
By my calculations changing the width and height of the radiator is only going to increase your front surface area by about 8%. You are actually going to loose overall volume because of the significant reduction in thickness. If this were my car I would still be worried about overheating. This could solve your problem but you also have to consider that the radiator will now be in front of the turbo and there is a possibility of heat soak there. Have you given thought to just buying some serious fans? I just got a 3000cfm 12" puller from summit that I put on my half size. I am also running a 1800cfm 6" pusher on the front. addressing the OP question though, I would give some more thought to this before running off and getting a custom radiator made that might not solve the problem.
#3
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (carnot)
I would consider trying a higher flow fan and maybe an antifreeze water wetter solution. Try the simple stuff before the extravagant, cause although that radiator setup looks functional and nice, it's probably gonna cost an arm and a leg to get it done. This is in an eg chassis?
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (sohczcturbo)
what is the distance between your intercooler and your rad? i run a civic half rad in my prelude with a fullrace turbo kit, 419whp on 1 bar with SC61 turbo. i used to have major heating problems, air temps were really high, water temps high, oil temps high. i bought a a new front bumper with way larger front mouth. that never helped, i raised the rear ot my bonnet to see if i cud vent air out, didnt help much.
i spoke to a british GT car aerodynamics designer about this problem, he said he would take a look at the car for me. he said the intercooler was way to far away from my rad. think about it, how hard does the air hit your hand wen your doing 60mph if you stick it out the window? damn hard, think of the intercooler as your hand, the air almost come to a stop right......... so in effect it does not have enough force to push tho the rad to. so it cause a vortex inbetween the rad and intercooler, causing my watertemps to rise and the other temps to rise. he said put the rad right behind the intercooler, like within 10mm. so i did, HOLY COW!!!! what a difference....... have you ever heard of a car running cold........ well it does, in boost, constent high reving, water temps dont go above 81'C, oil temps. here is a picture of what i did!
Modified by hyabusa hunter at 12:22 PM 8/14/2007
i spoke to a british GT car aerodynamics designer about this problem, he said he would take a look at the car for me. he said the intercooler was way to far away from my rad. think about it, how hard does the air hit your hand wen your doing 60mph if you stick it out the window? damn hard, think of the intercooler as your hand, the air almost come to a stop right......... so in effect it does not have enough force to push tho the rad to. so it cause a vortex inbetween the rad and intercooler, causing my watertemps to rise and the other temps to rise. he said put the rad right behind the intercooler, like within 10mm. so i did, HOLY COW!!!! what a difference....... have you ever heard of a car running cold........ well it does, in boost, constent high reving, water temps dont go above 81'C, oil temps. here is a picture of what i did!
Modified by hyabusa hunter at 12:22 PM 8/14/2007
#6
Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter)
I can see you are running hood pins as well. I was about to ask you how you were latching your hood since your radiator is right where the latch use to be. Are you using a CF hood?
Do you think stacking all the heat exchangers close together is possible with an OEM condenser and power steering heat exchanger in the mix of things? I think the easiest thing to do is to move the intercooler back so it is close to the condenser and move the PS fluid cooler up or behind the condenser. You think it could work?
Do you think stacking all the heat exchangers close together is possible with an OEM condenser and power steering heat exchanger in the mix of things? I think the easiest thing to do is to move the intercooler back so it is close to the condenser and move the PS fluid cooler up or behind the condenser. You think it could work?
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (carnot)
i put my power steering cooler in a different place. the object is to get things as close together as possible. so move the intercooler back if you can, i cudnt do that. so i moved everything forward, cut away the front of the car.
#9
Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter)
Here is an interesting thought. What if your car is a daily driver and spends a decent amount of time sitting at traffic lights. It seems like in this situation it might be preferable to have a gap between your radiator and intercooler so the fan does not have to pull air through an extra 3" of heat exchanger core. ...?
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (carnot)
hey man, what the heck, if the guy can have the time to mock up wooden rads and brackets, have his car off the road while doing this, some how i dont think its a daily driver!!! !!!! !!! !!!! !!! second, i drive mine 4 times maybe more a week. i have no problem in traffic!
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter)
Originally Posted by carnot
By my calculations changing the width and height of the radiator is only going to increase your front surface area by about 8%. You are actually going to loose overall volume because of the significant reduction in thickness. If this were my car I would still be worried about overheating. This could solve your problem but you also have to consider that the radiator will now be in front of the turbo and there is a possibility of heat soak there. Have you given thought to just buying some serious fans? I just got a 3000cfm 12" puller from summit that I put on my half size. I am also running a 1800cfm 6" pusher on the front. addressing the OP question though, I would give some more thought to this before running off and getting a custom radiator made that might not solve the problem.
Originally Posted by sohczcturbo
I would consider trying a higher flow fan and maybe an antifreeze water wetter solution. Try the simple stuff before the extravagant, cause although that radiator setup looks functional and nice, it's probably gonna cost an arm and a leg to get it done. This is in an eg chassis?
Originally Posted by hyabusa hunter
what is the distance between your intercooler and your rad? i run a civic half rad in my prelude with a fullrace turbo kit, 419whp on 1 bar with SC61 turbo. i used to have major heating problems, air temps were really high, water temps high, oil temps high. i bought a a new front bumper with way larger front mouth. that never helped, i raised the rear ot my bonnet to see if i cud vent air out, didnt help much.
i spoke to a british GT car aerodynamics designer about this problem, he said he would take a look at the car for me. he said the intercooler was way to far away from my rad. think about it, how hard does the air hit your hand wen your doing 60mph if you stick it out the window? damn hard, think of the intercooler as your hand, the air almost come to a stop right......... so in effect it does not have enough force to push tho the rad to. so it cause a vortex inbetween the rad and intercooler, causing my watertemps to rise and the other temps to rise. he said put the rad right behind the intercooler, like within 10mm. so i did, HOLY COW!!!! what a difference....... have you ever heard of a car running cold........ well it does, in boost, constent high reving, water temps dont go above 81'C, oil temps. here is a picture of what i did!
Modified by hyabusa hunter at 12:22 PM 8/14/2007
i spoke to a british GT car aerodynamics designer about this problem, he said he would take a look at the car for me. he said the intercooler was way to far away from my rad. think about it, how hard does the air hit your hand wen your doing 60mph if you stick it out the window? damn hard, think of the intercooler as your hand, the air almost come to a stop right......... so in effect it does not have enough force to push tho the rad to. so it cause a vortex inbetween the rad and intercooler, causing my watertemps to rise and the other temps to rise. he said put the rad right behind the intercooler, like within 10mm. so i did, HOLY COW!!!! what a difference....... have you ever heard of a car running cold........ well it does, in boost, constent high reving, water temps dont go above 81'C, oil temps. here is a picture of what i did!
Modified by hyabusa hunter at 12:22 PM 8/14/2007
When i remove the front bumper, the temps drop alot! so i am also going to get a standard bumper and cut out a big hole where the IC/Radiator are...
When i say track racing, i mean circuit racing (10-15mins at constant revs/boost etc)
Originally Posted by carnot
Here is an interesting thought. What if your car is a daily driver and spends a decent amount of time sitting at traffic lights. It seems like in this situation it might be preferable to have a gap between your radiator and intercooler so the fan does not have to pull air through an extra 3" of heat exchanger core. ...?
Originally Posted by hyabusa hunter
hey man, what the heck, if the guy can have the time to mock up wooden rads and brackets, have his car off the road while doing this, some how i dont think its a daily driver!!! !!!! !!! !!!! !!! second, i drive mine 4 times maybe more a week. i have no problem in traffic!
Keep the ideas coming
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hyabusa hunter »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">post up a picture of the front of your car? also have you thought about running a oil cooler?</TD></TR></TABLE>
heres the front
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dj9046 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a FAL fan it will solve all your overheating problems with just the 1/2 sized radiator</TD></TR></TABLE>
Who sells those, any HT sponsors?
heres the front
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dj9046 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a FAL fan it will solve all your overheating problems with just the 1/2 sized radiator</TD></TR></TABLE>
Who sells those, any HT sponsors?
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (haydenpothoven)
personally i think you need to run a nice big thermostat controlled oil cooler. i found this helped stablize my water temps to. move the rad forward closer to your intercooler, or move the intercooler back closer to your rad.
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (carnot)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by carnot »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where in the system are you running your oil cooler? </TD></TR></TABLE>
he doesnt have one yet
maybe shrouding the radiator will help with the air flowing through it?
he doesnt have one yet
maybe shrouding the radiator will help with the air flowing through it?
#19
Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (jase2985)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jase2985 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
he doesnt have one yet
</TD></TR></TABLE>
notice that my post is in response to hyabusa hunter thus the "Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter) "
he does have an oil cooler and i would like to know what feeds it and where it returns the oil to.
he doesnt have one yet
</TD></TR></TABLE>
notice that my post is in response to hyabusa hunter thus the "Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter) "
he does have an oil cooler and i would like to know what feeds it and where it returns the oil to.
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (carnot)
well look at my first picture and next to the rad is my oil cooler a 19 row mocal one, i run it off a sandwich plate in between the block and the oil filter, there is a inline thermostat which opens at 75'C. im planning on running a 25 row soon wen i up the boost and put my new turbo on. mmmmmmmmm precision 6776hps .96A/R
i would recommend runnning at least a 19 row oil cooler with that type of track driving.
i would recommend runnning at least a 19 row oil cooler with that type of track driving.
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (hyabusa hunter)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hyabusa hunter »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well look at my first picture and next to the rad is my oil cooler a 19 row mocal one, i run it off a sandwich plate in between the block and the oil filter, there is a inline thermostat which opens at 75'C. im planning on running a 25 row soon wen i up the boost and put my new turbo on. mmmmmmmmm precision 6776hps .96A/R
i would recommend runnning at least a 19 row oil cooler with that type of track driving.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yep i am looking into a oil cooler now (with a thermostat).
I will try a few other things and see if i can get this stuff sorted.
i would recommend runnning at least a 19 row oil cooler with that type of track driving.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yep i am looking into a oil cooler now (with a thermostat).
I will try a few other things and see if i can get this stuff sorted.
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (haydenpothoven)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by haydenpothoven »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></TD></TR></TABLE>
I think I found your problem - wood is a really shitty material to use for a radiator
You should think about making ducting/shrouds for the radiator, to channel the air inside. Also if you're running a half-size rad now, <U>do you have a block-off plate of sorts to put next to the radiator?</U> You'll find the base model civics w/o AC come with a plastic one force air to go around it (and into the rad). Like they mentioned with the 'hand in 60mph winds' example, any air that passes the fmic would prefer to go around the rad. If thats the case now, it may be getting heated more from your turbo parts after it bypasses the rad, and circulating the engine bay - making underhood temps higher.
As for your original question - the faster the air passes a cooling fin, the better it will cool it. Say you have 2 radiators with the same SURFACE area - one with a large frontal area, but is half as thick, and another with a small frontal area, but half as thick. You'll have air passing through at a higher speed with the thin rad, as well as a larger mass of air (two-fold due to speed and frontal area), so the thin rad cools much better. However if you have a VERY high pressure airflow, such as 80mph winds being ducted in, a thicker rad will use each square unit of frontal area more effectively.
In other words, frontal area FTW.
I think I found your problem - wood is a really shitty material to use for a radiator
You should think about making ducting/shrouds for the radiator, to channel the air inside. Also if you're running a half-size rad now, <U>do you have a block-off plate of sorts to put next to the radiator?</U> You'll find the base model civics w/o AC come with a plastic one force air to go around it (and into the rad). Like they mentioned with the 'hand in 60mph winds' example, any air that passes the fmic would prefer to go around the rad. If thats the case now, it may be getting heated more from your turbo parts after it bypasses the rad, and circulating the engine bay - making underhood temps higher.
As for your original question - the faster the air passes a cooling fin, the better it will cool it. Say you have 2 radiators with the same SURFACE area - one with a large frontal area, but is half as thick, and another with a small frontal area, but half as thick. You'll have air passing through at a higher speed with the thin rad, as well as a larger mass of air (two-fold due to speed and frontal area), so the thin rad cools much better. However if you have a VERY high pressure airflow, such as 80mph winds being ducted in, a thicker rad will use each square unit of frontal area more effectively.
In other words, frontal area FTW.
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Re: radiator thickness vs width.... (HiProfile)
BTW the t-stat shouldn't be under 180F, or 82C. The ideal water temp is usually 190F (87C), and a cooler t-stat just keeps you overheating for only a few seconds longer. You've probably noticed a warm engine can go from 190F to 220F in a few second, so...
FYI a 190F t-stat flows the same amount of water as a 160F t-stat. If your car can't maintain 160F, the 160F t-stat won't help at all.
FYI2 I used to help a neighbor race a 70's circle-track car, and he ran a Pontiac 400ci/6600cc that was prone to overheating. He would usually not run a t-stat, instead he'd run a big washer. It allowed a higher water flow, but not too much like you'd get with NO t-stat.
FYI a 190F t-stat flows the same amount of water as a 160F t-stat. If your car can't maintain 160F, the 160F t-stat won't help at all.
FYI2 I used to help a neighbor race a 70's circle-track car, and he ran a Pontiac 400ci/6600cc that was prone to overheating. He would usually not run a t-stat, instead he'd run a big washer. It allowed a higher water flow, but not too much like you'd get with NO t-stat.
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