mrlegoman

I've got a Full-Race GT28RS setup. The bolts that hold the turbo onto the manifold are causing me some problems. I was at the ITR Expo last week and at one point all 4 bolts fell out and the only thing keeping the entire turbo asm from falling was my coolant lines. The bolts come up through the bottom into the manifold. I've tried lock washers and they are useless with the heat. Thread-locker is a joke. And there is not enough room up top to put a nut on the end of it.
I was finally able to get a double-nut on one of the bolts. But I still lost almost 10 bolts throughout the event. (At least two every session).
My only alternative for now is to go with some type of safety wire setup.

Has anyone every had this problem or know of a better solution?

[edit]
From the last Redline Time Attack:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2120006

I found out that the bolts holding the two c-clamps that hold the turbo exhaust housing onto the turbo had backed out. This caused the exhaust props to interfere with the housing.

It cost me 450$ for the rebuild. Should be getting it back anyday now (1/18/08). But aside from the manifold bolts, I've realized I need to look at EVERY bolt on the setup.


Modified by mrlegoman at 9:41 AM 1/15/2008

Archidictus

There's nothing wrong with safety wire. If that's your only option, make sure you use quality wire to keep those bolts in. I know it sounds elementary, but are you sure the bolts they gave you - and the successive replacements - are the proper size? Is there any stripping of the threads or anything?

boostedcivicsir

drill and use cotter/ presto pins.

a1320addict

iTrader: (1)

Possible Solution:

Tap each of the (4) bolt holes on the flange of the manifold. Use a stud that is long enough that you can still get a nut on there, some blue loctite, and you should be set

or

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedcivicsir &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">drill and use cotter/ presto pins.</TD></TR></TABLE>

mike1114

iTrader: (1)

aside from safety wire, you can use jam nuts, they are thinner nuts than normal and use two of them to double-nut each bolt.

I did this and was able to on all four bolts. I also did this on my downpipe as I had to use studs for two of the botls.

agrn93ls

i assembled my turbo to manifold on a bench using bolts and lock washers. i dont think the lock washers do **** at those temps? but the bolts also have those locking grooves on the head where it contacts the washer i think that helps some. i used a half inch impact and hammered the crap outta them and used no gasket i think that is important too since i have less problems with the waste gate after removing gasket. so far 2 years and not once has the turbo bolts loosened a bit

i actually got so frustrated with my WG bolts backin out i took out the gasket and TACK welded the heads to the WG body. in this case you would tack the bolts to the manifold. easy to get in with a dremel or what ever and grind off the tack if you need to loosen/service the turbo.

OR what the other guys said^^^

mrlegoman

There is not enough room to put nuts on the threads as they come through the manifold. (I was able to only get one bolt double nutted)

Lock-tite is a joke. Even their high-temp stuff is only good up to 500 degs. My manifold gets that hot just idling. Estimated peak temps are around 1200-1500 (my temp gauge only goes to 1000).

I though about the cotter pin idea. That would help keep the bolts from falling out, but not loosening. Once their loose, my gasket blows out.

I have a friend who worked on helicopters in the special opps unit for the military. He said he's going to show me how to properly safety wire.

I'm wondering now, should I even run a gasket?

agrn93ls

I dont run a gasket. i think it cuts down the expansion some that helps keep the bolts from loosening. i seem to be having better luck still with my wastegate staying tight but not as well as the turbo.

the title to this thread, lmao. sorry i feel your pain, but its still funny

ringgold

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mrlegoman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is not enough room to put nuts on the threads as they come through the manifold. (I was able to only get one bolt double nutted)

Lock-tite is a joke. Even their high-temp stuff is only good up to 500 degs. My manifold gets that hot just idling. Estimated peak temps are around 1200-1500 (my temp gauge only goes to 1000).

I though about the cotter pin idea. That would help keep the bolts from falling out, but not loosening. Once their loose, my gasket blows out.

I have a friend who worked on helicopters in the special opps unit for the military. He said he's going to show me how to properly safety wire.

I'm wondering now, should I even run a gasket?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey man I was at the Expo over there with Chad. I heard about your misfortune with the turbo.

I was in the Air Force and worked on aircraft. I know how to properly safety wire and so does my brother as he is also in the Air Force and a jet engine specialist.

We both had to go through little training here and there on aircraft hardware and we had technical orders on how to properly install nuts, bolts, safety wire, cotter pins, etc. In your situation since you do track your car and its turbo'd I know it gets super hot under that hood and around that turbo. Any kind of plastic material on the turbo and manifold is going to be useless. Even some metal products are going to be useless as already proven. On aircraft engines and areas that got over a certain temp nylon self locking nuts were a no no. We would have to use metal self locking nuts and they worked well. I believe most of them were a 12 point head and I think most of them had a slight oval shaped head, and that is where the self locking feature came from.

I wished that I had some to take a pic of and show you. Actually, I might have a few laying around here if I can find them.

Safety wire is a good method to use as long as it is done properly. There are different sizes of safety wire as well to choose from. One thing though if the nuts or bolts you are going to use do not have holes in them already for safety wire you will have to drill them yourself. That can be a pain as well especially with those little drill bits.

In the military we had all kinds of what I thought at first were silly rules to go by with hardware. Whenever, anything was installed it had to have alteast 2 threads protruding throught the nut from the bolt. We also had what was called prevailing torque. And there was a table to go buy in a certain manual to see if the self locking nut you were using had enough torque when you were running it down the threads of whatever it was securing. If the torque was not enough in certain cases then the nut was not to be used.

90dxhmt

iTrader: (1)

Some nuts like the ones your stock exh manifold had should work as well they are a metal locking nut Wire would be your best bet if you cant find any good metal locking nuts.

HamiltonRex

when metal gets hot it expands.. its that simple.

between the vibrations and expanding its loosening your bolts, you need to get that thing up to temp, and then tighten up each bolt, being carefull not to break it. Once its tight if it dosent break when it cools your in business

Jared

You need to get some locking nuts. It's too hot for nylocks. You need either the type that is oval shaped or the lockers like the factory honda exhaust that have the "fingers" at the end.

mrlegoman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to get some locking nuts. It's too hot for nylocks. You need either the type that is oval shaped or the lockers like the factory honda exhaust that have the "fingers" at the end.</TD></TR></TABLE>

"There is not enough room to put nuts on the threads as they come through the manifold. (I was able to only get one bolt double nutted)"

I should probably get a pic. There just is no room to put nuts on the protruding threads around the manifold.

This has never been an issues before. But for some reason, it picked the last event as THE issue. Down at CMP, I had two of the downpipe studs break off inside the exhaust housing on the turbo. Likely due to over-torquing.

igo4bmx

you can also try http://www.stage8.com
i've had mine on for a while and they never come loose

SovXietday

I've been using simple steel lock washers on all of my bolts and I have yet to have one back out on 2 setups now. Same bolts/washers on both setups, been about 8 months now.

KeyserSoze

Like stated, safety wire or nordlocks.

Also as stated drill a hole in each stud and have two threads protruding is the best way to go and then safety wire the studs.

You could also use nord locks on the bolt/nut end. Here's a link for you.....

http://www.nord-lock.com/

^^ Good stuff there.

mrlegoman

I used to use SS spring lock washers, but after a few heat cycles, they lost all their spring.

The stage 8 bolts look damn good.

I wonder how the heat cycling would effect the nord-lock's?

1fastEK9

that's some crazy ****, find some thick lock washers and try them they should do the job

BlueSi2k

Mine used to come out all the time. I went to studs with those nordlock washers from mcmaster.com and never had a problem after that. Check them out.

HiProfile

Nordlocks look nice, but I have a better, more secure solution. Mcmaster.com also sells castle nuts, and you can drill a hole in the bolt threads, and insert a cotter pin or any sort of wire to keep them from untwisting. The nut/bolt can rotate together, but not seperately. Just don't get the castle nut-looking lock nuts. I tried mcmaster's SS versions, and all it did was strip my studs. If you don't mind tossing the locknut/bolt out each time, by all means get them.

ringgold

In the Air Force most all the time that I can remember messing with castle-nuts (we called them castlated nuts) you never tightened them down really tight. The nut itself did not hold alot of torque, and most all the time that we used these nuts it was on moving parts. Instead, you tighten them down a little and then back them off so that you could install your cotter pin. They would probably work but I would rather have something that I could torque down and not have to worry about installing a cotter pin in. There are nuts out there that can hold some torque and also withstand the high temps that a turbo can produce during a track event.

I would say that the factory exhaust mani nuts would work well. They hold some torque and withstand heat, on top of that most people use them over and over again and they still work. I dont know the manufacturer of those nuts personally, but it would be cool to find out the manufacturer and see what other nuts they offer that might work for your application.

Its not a super hard problem to figure out. But I know that some of these nuts can be expensive!! and to keep loosing them would suck bad.

Jared

cotter pins and castle nuts arent meant for holding torque, they are meant for pivoting parts like tie rod ends and ball joints that are taper seat. the pin just keeps the nut from backing off enough to unseat the taper. you either need locking nuts or a tack weld after install.

tepid1

And save your fingers with this tool.... you'll get cut up for sure

ringgold

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cotter pins and castle nuts arent meant for holding torque, they are meant for pivoting parts like tie rod ends and ball joints that are taper seat. the pin just keeps the nut from backing off enough to unseat the taper. you either need locking nuts or a tack weld after install.</TD></TR></TABLE>


My thoughts exactly!!!


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tepid1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

And save your fingers with this tool.... you'll get cut up for sure

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Safety wire pliers are a good tool to have to safety wire thats for sure. That wire can indeed slice the life out of your fingers and it can also stab completely through your finger if thick enough. My supervisor in the Air Force did it!! hahaha

In that pic it shows how to do the double strand method for a series. You can also do a single strand method but it is not quite as common I dont think. Safety wire is almost an art form!! it can also be a big pain in the butt as well, especially if you can not see the parts that you are working with. There are only supposed to be a certain amount of twists per inch depending on the wire size and there is a certain number of bolts that you can wire up. I think the maximum length of safety wire you were supposed to use in wiring up multiple bolts is 24" but Im not sure. That was all aircraft rules though

mrlegoman

First post updated.

Was planning on safety wire, but here is my concern. Using new bolts on the setup, once everything is tightened down, after a few heat cycles, usually they need to be checked.
So if I safety wire the setup, install it, then heat cycle it, how to I recheck the bolts? Or do I just not worry about it?