M.A.R.C.

OK some pre-info:
My car: 00 civic ex
turbo stuff: sfp mani, t3 60 trim/60 ar, .48 ar stage 1 wheel, tial w/g 6.5psi
Anyway someone please take interest in this post. It's important that I have this stuff cleared up before my install day (planned for friday-sat).

OK, this guy in my area, he has a 400+whp turbo gsr. He was interested in helping me and my friends setup our cars so that he can showcase his work for when he opens his shop. Well I show him all the parts I've put together for my kit, and he likes it. Only problem is, he hates my idea for my fuel system (afc hack: dsm 450cc's, afc, intank pump). He says it will be too rich... WAY too rich... OVERLY FLOODINGLY rich. He said it would be too rich and will "wash" the cylinder walls and end up making me lose way too much power. I told him well if you just plug in 450cc's and call it a day yes it would, but that's why you trim it out with the afc. He then says that doing that won't be enough. I told him it wouldn't be that lean and I'd rather run a lil richer to be safe for now since I'm not running a standalone, and anycase it would be hitting the dyno soon after (probably latest one week after). At first he suggested I use 370 or 390cc injectors, afc and the pump (no FMU). But then if I did it the way the afc hack works, I would only be able to get like 5-7psi before throwing a MAP CEL. He said to use the Missing Link or checkvalves. I was like nah that's more hassle anyway... to get new injectors and a missing link. Then... he suggested using STOCK injectors, the afc, Missing Link and pump. I'm like wtf? I dunno if I have the wrong idea or not... but stock injectors + boost... and no FMU? Although he said it'd be using the afc to ADD fuel, I don't quite see how either of the setups he suggested will either work or be efficient. The thing that kinda pissed me off... he kept putting down my setup as if it would never even idle. When I know a lot of people on h-t have used it, and I've even seen it in action first hand before VTC Civic got his hondata. He kinda ridiculed it. He'd call friends who he helped setup cars for and say how they ran stock injectors and just afc under boost. I'm like ??? right now. Can someone please clear all this up for me, and help me make a good decision. My heart is set of the afc hack just because... I PERSONALLY have seen it work, and VTC ran it for a while and I've never heard of any problems. But at the same time it's kinda hard to doubt this guy because he built such a bad *** motor, I mean u can't be a dumbass and make a 400+whp teg unless u pay everyone to do the work for you.

So CONFUSED. I have to figure out my decision by friday when he's going to put it all in for me. As of right now, when I talk to him next, I'm going to tell him... I want it done MY way, then strap it on the dyno, then check out the a/f curve and see if it's ridiculously rich at -40% w/ the 450cc's, because I don't want to risk running anywhere lean.

filetofit

He's a knucklehead. If anything at -40% you may find yourself a little bit on the lean side. He may know how to torque a bolt but he probably isn't that sophisticated when it comes to engine control systems. Ask him if he knows what a MAP sensor does, what the relationship between pressure and MAP voltage is, at what voltage a Honda MAP throws a CEL, and how an AFC works. If he doesn't know then **** him. He's talking out his ***.

M.A.R.C.

Thanks for like reinstating in my head that I know wtf I'm talking about although I'm somewhat of a novice. I explained to him the whole setup of the vafc hack not only about cutting back fuel, but also about preventing the MAP CEL... he wouldn't even like hear me out. He kept calling BS on the hack. Also, what do u think about what he was saying about using the 390's and afc or STOCKs and afc to do the fuel? I thought the 390cc's would be fine but it would kinda defeat the purpose of trying to do away with the CEL. And then the stocks I just thought wouldn't be enough. Also. I'm sure he doesn't understand the afc at all... as far as I know... the afc does NOT control injector duty cycle or pulse width directly. He kept trying to imply that it works like that. I didn't know what to think. I'm a novice and I'm hearing all this from a well respected "pro" so to speak. I searched H-T because I knew I saw dynos of the afc hack. And I found one that the guy posted his an a/f ratios and they seemed to be a little on the safe side the leanest being somewhere like a 12:1ish... which I think is pretty decent from my knowledge. It's kinda hard to swallow because who this info is coming from. U should see this guy's car, it's no rig at all... it's a bad *** piece of hondawork, but I dunno.

filetofit

You know you can have the finest parts and the finest tools and the finest car. You can build a thousand motors. That doesn't mean you know how to tune an electronically contolled fuel injected engine. He probably has what many others have, a standalone tuned on a dyno by someone else who knows what they are doing.

I guarantee you, you are on the right track. Stock injectors will not work and 390cc injectors will limit the amount of boost you can run. And you sure as hell don't want an FMU, or a missing link, or check valves. The AFC doesn't control injector pulsewidth directly. It alters the MAP sensor voltage that the ECU "sees" thereby indirectly controlling fuel delivery. You already know more about engine control systems than he does.

M.A.R.C.

Yah he claims to have tuned his car himself also. He was telling me and some friends at his house last nite that he helps out some of the shops here in south FL. I dunno. I'm just buggin' out on it. I hate to bring up stuff that I find out a website to try to prove my point but I might have to. I found a dyno that JFK78 did with the afc hack and tuned it to a a/f ratio of 12.0-12.5. And I know VTC Civic personally and although he hasn't dynoed his car with the hack. The car rode fine and didn't wash the cylinder walls at all, and he was running it for months. Sometimes I wonder, with cars these days... everyone knows a lot, but yet they don't. Anyway, thanks for making me more sure about myself. I even told him... the afc doesn't wire up to the injectors so how the hell would it control pulse width or duty cycle? And the sad part is... all my friends are supporting him mainly cause of the state of his car. One of my friends even proposed "well... the vafc hooks up to the ecu so it possibly could control the injectors" i'm like wtf man. I'm going to tell him... do it MY way... strap it on the dyno, tune it to a good point. If it runs too rich and washes the cylinder walls or i get spanked because I'm loosing too much power because of being too rich... at least I can say... it's my car, I chose the setup... and I don't have to blame anyone for my losses.

Anyway anyone with anymore insight? I'm gonna have to call VTC today

VTC_CiViC

VTC says: He's nuts! First of all, with the stock ECU, an AFC cannot increase fuel delivery itself (+ trim), it can only be used to reduce fuel (- trim). Any addition with the stock ECU and no missing link will result in too much voltage read att he MAP and CEL. I know because I did this many times when screwing around with my setup the first months.

Secondly, how does he expect 240cc injectors running stock pressure to fuel 5-7psi of additional air? Unless I'm missing something drastic, i'm bewildered at the level of idiocity this guy posseses, especially for sombody flauting a "400whp built GS-R"..


[Modified by VTC_slow_CiViC, 11:21 AM 9/28/2002]

Midwestrider

I say go ahead with your intial plans w/ afc, pump and 450cc's....

fire7882

I say learn more and then instal it yourself when you feel confident. Then get someone else to tune it.

M.A.R.C.

yah i would do it but I really don't have the time cushion for slip ups and such. and even though he's doing it for me... he's not doing it ALL. He thinks I just want him to do it for me... i guess that's why he thinks i dunno wtf i'm talking about. I want him to help me to expedite the install process so they're no/less slip ups and the quicker ill be able to have my car back (school and work = no time). It's been bugging me all nite and till today since we had the debate last nite. I was so frustrated I called VTC to make sure I wasn't the looney one. BTW... sorry to bug ya Dave . Oh well. I'm definitely going with my setup, or else I'm finding some other way to do it.

liam821

AGREE

liam

hondaswaper

sound like that guy has never heard of www.Honda-Tech.com

good luck with your set up