program

Give you an idea of setup, goals and use.
b18c5 turbo question
mostly street, thunderhill and laguna seca twice a year
not looking for more than 15 psi
retain as much reliability as possible

all internals will be built by me. And machine work will be done by me.
My questions:
At what point/psi will my stock open deck sleeves distort or fail?
At what point is resleeving necessary?
recommondations on pistons and rods, and why?
I know what good turbo rods and pistons should be like, but i would like some suggestions so i dont have to call ROSS and have some custom built.


experience, insight, suggestions, all appreciated.
Thanks.

turbotime

i would get forged internals around 250whp.

I would sleeve it around there as well, but sleeving is almost optional as bseries OEM sleeves have been known to take a lot of boost.

I would suggest eagle or crower rods, I use arias pistons. I would recommend a CR of 9:1 or less for boost...

dont forget, fuel/tuning systems is KEY for boost so you should also be asking about that...

hope this helps

SFWD 1934

Stock B18C1/5 I have seen take about 1 bar max (and that depends on how it is tuned/driven/etc). I would sleeve the block to the stock bore size. Especially if you are not goign to be doing anymore than about 15 PSI. I have been able to get just as much torque and sometimes quicker on a stock bore then on an 84mm bore size. Rods/pistons, again you can go with something that will not break the bank there as well. So yes an Eagle rod set with some Wiseco pistons would be a great choice for that. I would at least use the Eagle rods with the larger rod bolt (3/8).

As far as the turbo goes, I would go with something like the GT28RS. That will be a quick spooling turbo that will be good for about 280-300 whp. It will typically continue making power all the way to about 8300 RPM before it starts to become hot air. If you need more then that, you can go up to say the GT3071R. that is a great turbo for road race vehicles.

Good luck with the build. I see you are from Nor Cal as well.

Jason

program

Thanks guys,

No one knows how much psi/Hp stock sleeves will take though?

KeyserSoze

Time and time again stock sleeves have reliably held up to ~400whp. Some have even taken stock sleeves to 650+whp. There is a thread of a Jeff Evans tuned b16 where this was done. There is lots of info on this. Do a search for "stock sleeve horsepower" and make sure to check archived and post bodies. You will find a bit of info on the subject. Here is an explanation of why sleeves fail, I don't remember who wrote it, but it is very informing.

"Are you running stock or aftermarket sleeves? The main causes of a sleeve cracking is cylinder pressure exceeding the tensile strength of the sleeve or the cylinder deforming beyond the sleeves elasticity. Stock sleeves are std. gray cast iron and have a low tensile strength (approximately 30 K PSI) and a very low percentage of elongation (non-flexable).
For aftermarket sleeves there are 3 grades of materials available as well as different wall thickness and designs. A std. repair sleeve is made of the same material as stock sleeves (very cheap) and has a very thin wall (actually weaker than stock since it's pressed in rather than cast in). An in-between grade (inexpensive also) is made of a cast chromoly and is slightly more flexiable and has a higher than stock tensile strength (50K PSI). Some installers are using these due to the lower cost of the sleeves. The Ductile iron sleeves have a tensile of over 100K PSI and are very flexable.
With all that being said, assuming the sleeves were a quality casting and installed correctly and don't sink, leak, deform or oscillate (wobble), the cylinder pressure and HP are the cause of aftermarket sleeve failure. All sleeve mfg.'s and installers are limited to a max wall thickness by the bore centerline (distance between bores) and cylinder bore. This is always the thinnest and weakest point of everyones sleeve, regardless of how much material (ribs, thicker wall) is in other parts of the sleeve.
So if you have an 84 bore on an 89 bore center there's 5mm between the cylinders. If the sleeves were touching (most don't), the individual sleeves wall thickness would be 2.5mm or .098" . .098 x 100K = 9842 PSI for the Ductile sleeve, half of that for chromoly and 2940 PSI for gray cast iron. Notice that a 1 mm overbore on ductile sleeves will drop that to 7800 PSI and a 2mm overbore drops to 5800 PSI. A stock material cast iron sleeve would drop all the way to 1740 PSI on an 86 bore.Advancing the timing to far or detonation (pre-ignition) will cause cylinder pressures to spike (especially with a turbo) because the piston is still moving up (compressing) as the ignited mixture is expanding. Resulting in possible sleeve failure. As the HP goes up the thrust (side) load of the piston on the sleeve goes up as more force is applied . Converting the linear motion of the piston to the rotary motion of the crank causes the piston to push to the thrust side. This can cause the sleeve to distort or wobble as the load is applied during the power stroke and reduced during intake and exhaust. This is what makes a closed deck desirable to support against this oscillation and reduce the fretting on the head gasket (leading to failure)as well as reducing the chance of creating a leak at the bottom of the sleeve. This movement can also cause a rigid stock sleeve to fatigue over time and crack."

For a 15psi car you will not need to go all out, just forged internals, new rings, bearings ect. like was already stated. I personally would feel fine running a gsr @ 300whp with a freshly built stock block. But you should be higher than that @15psi. Dont shoot for boost numbers, shoot for hp #'s. Boost number will give VERY different hp results based on your setup. Turbo, downpipe and exhuast, intake manifold, turbo manifold, all that **** and most importantly getting the proper tuning when it's all together. Sounds like you've got a lot more resarch to do. Good luck and have fun.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by program &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks guys,

No one knows how much psi/Hp stock sleeves will take though? </TD></TR></TABLE>

For stock internals it should be good up to say 300 HP, maybe a little more if the guy tuning your setup knows what he's doing.

For stock sleeves, with upgraded pistons and rods, anywhere between 300-600HP. Jeff evans has tuned quite a few stock sleeve, upgraded pistons/rod setups. So far I think the most he's been able to get out of that kind of motor build was about 620-640ish HP.

For brand pistons there are CP, Wiseco, Arias, JE. And for rods you have Eagle, Crower (I dont recommend them though), Manley, and Pauter (which can handle greater then 600-800+ HP).

program

Thanks for the info guys. Stock sleeves it is. as far as pistons go I'll look for the ones with the best ring pack design and silicone content. And I'll look into manley and pauter rods but i was thinking carillo$$. 300-350 whp or 400 crank will be the max I'll be looking for on the track and more than enough for sunny days on the road. besides i leave the "stupid fast" stuff to my R1.

Thanks again.

program

-The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist.

My mom used to tell me this when i was a kid.
I've never seen it again until know.

KeyserSoze

Hehe, its from a movie as well. I honestly think its one of the greates quotes I have ever read, and I really like quotes. The movie is called "The usual suspects." Great movie, really. Go out and rent it its really that good.

BlueShadow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by program &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for the info guys. Stock sleeves it is. as far as pistons go I'll look for the ones with the best ring pack design and silicone content. And I'll look into manley and pauter rods but i was thinking carillo$$. 300-350 whp or 400 crank will be the max I'll be looking for on the track and more than enough for sunny days on the road. besides i leave the "stupid fast" stuff to my R1.

Thanks again. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're only looking to make 300-400 HP, then Pauter, Carillo would be overkill. you should be good with Manleys or Eagles, but it's up to you.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by program &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">-The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist.

My mom used to tell me this when i was a kid.
I've never seen it again until know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

alrighty then...