T4 Neon

See pictures below.. It appears that my turbo was leaking oil between the center section and the turbine housing. It trickled out around the v-band surface and baked onto the pretty ceramic coated surface. Enough leaked out that the shifter cable bracket is a little moist as seen by the arrow.





I currently have a -4 line from the stock turbo oil feed port on the block (SRT-4 block), and a -10 return which also returns to the stock SRT location.

Do you think a restrictor would solve this, or is this something more serious? The turbo is a Borg Warner journal bearing S372 (though not purchased through Bullseye). There were no issues after 20 pulls on the dyno, but this started after the 3rd and 4th passes at the track last week. When I disassembled it all the clamps were still tight. Your thoughts?

Turbocivic94

What kind of turbo is this?

I would recommend -3an but from the looks turbo need to be rebuilt.

T4 Neon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbocivic94 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What kind of turbo is this?

I would recommend -3an but from the looks turbo need to be rebuilt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by T4 Neon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The turbo is a Borg Warner journal bearing S372 (though not purchased through Bullseye).</TD></TR></TABLE>

Needs a rebuild already? The thing is virtually brand new. It has only 20 dyno pulls, and 4 passes at the strip. But hey, maybe I killed it with the -4 feed line. Any other opinions?

redboost10

doesnt turbodano recommend a -4an feed line on their turbos?

turbodano

Yes a -4 is needed and so is a good drain line. Is that the drain line I see in the pic. If so what size line is that and you can't have a 90 degree turn in the drain.

I will be happy to help you get this straight. I will be on the road for the next few days so please call me on my cell 231-830 5102.

turbodano

We put a note in the box with the turbos that say -4 feed line only. The -3 does not supply enough oil flow for a floating bearing system.

Most likley in your case the oil drain could not return the oil to the pan. When this happens the oil has to go some where and it leaks out of the piston rings making that stain you have in the pic.

Tjabo

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yes a -4 is needed and so is a good drain line. Is that the drain line I see in the pic. If so what size line is that and you can't have a 90 degree turn in the drain. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Are these comments true for pretty much all name brand journal bearing turbos? I'm finally getting my stuff together, and I have a short -3 feed line, and the drain line is -10 with a -10 90 degree fitting just like that going into the pan. . . . . Sheesh. . . .

Edited for clarity. . .

T4 Neon

Thanks turbodano. It is a BW turbo, but I purchased it from another vendor (not Bullseye). Thanks for offering to help solve this anyway.

I have a -4 feed line, and a -10 return. I use a 90* out the bottom of the turbo because there isn't room for a 45 to make the turn necessary to get back to the oil return in the block. It all travels down hill, but it has to travel about 10" horizontally for only 3" of height change.

Are the seals ruined? Or can this happen from time to time with no long-term damage to the bearings? Will it just get worse?

DaveF

have you ran the car at all ? does it smoke ?

do you have crank case ventilation system ?

T4 Neon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaveF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you ran the car at all ? does it smoke ?

do you have crank case ventilation system ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It doesn't smoke at idle or light throttle on the way up to the staging lanes. I don't know if it smoked under load or not. I suspect this happened when the oil pressure got up above 70psi during the runs. SRT-4 oil pumps are pretty stout, maybe too stout.

I have two -8 lines from my valvecover to a catch can. The catch can has a single round filter on it. The catch can was bone dry after the day at the track if that matters.

DaveF

we run bullseye power s374 on our hotrod coupe, the car sees over 80 psi on a run. i dont think the high oil pressure did that to your turbo. the car also has a very "shallow" drain hose(no slope)

from what i can see it only looks like a tiny bit of oil. is your whole exhuast or downpipe oiled up inside ? like dripping oil out ?

do you notice any oil in the compressor side of the turbo ?

T4 Neon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaveF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we run bullseye power s374 on our hotrod coupe, the car sees over 80 psi on a run. i dont think the high oil pressure did that to your turbo. the car also has a very "shallow" drain hose(no slope)

from what i can see it only looks like a tiny bit of oil. is your whole exhuast or downpipe oiled up inside ? like dripping oil out ?

do you notice any oil in the compressor side of the turbo ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope, compressor is clean, as is the rest of the exhaust. Just some on the exterior of the center section, and what you see on the turbine. I agree, its not much. I guess I'll run it again and keep my eye on it. As it baked it caused some smoke that I could see & smell as I came back down the return road. That was my original cause for concern. I don't want to cause a fire under there!

DaveF

driving back the return road it was doing that ? did you make a full pass, clutch in on the shutdown area, or let the engine downrev/slow the car down ? also, if you didnt drive back the return road. did you idle the car for a minute or so after the run ?


i agree, definitly dont need a fire, thats the last thing you want !

T4 Neon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaveF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">driving back the return road it was doing that ? did you make a full pass, clutch in on the shutdown area, or let the engine downrev/slow the car down ? also, if you didnt drive back the return road. did you idle the car for a minute or so after the run ?


i agree, definitly dont need a fire, thats the last thing you want ! </TD></TR></TABLE>

No; to clarify, I noticed the smoke and smell on the return road. I drove the car back to the pits. I use that 1-2 minutes as the cooldown time. I think the oil leak happened during the run, when oil pressure was high. Once I got back to my pit and popped the hood, it was still baking off the oil.

It was a full pass. One easy pass, one medium pass, then two hard passes - total of 4 runs that day. The oil leak happened during the 4th and final pass. I shift into neutral after crossing the stripe and decelerate with the brakes.

I guess I'll reassemble everything, and keep an eye on things next time at the track. Is there a torque spec for the two v-band flanges that hold the tubine & compressor to the center section on a BW turbo?

DaveF

i belive there is a tq/spec for them v band clamp nuts. i dont know them, but someone on here who deals with these things day in and day out should know. (turbodano)

im curious to know if the turbo keeps doing this now, that its done it once.

is it possible that the oil that is on your turbine just shot out of side of the drain flange or AN fittings ?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by T4 Neon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a -4 feed line, and a -10 return. I use a 90* out the bottom of the turbo because there isn't room for a 45 to make the turn necessary to get back to the oil return in the block. It all travels down hill, but it has to travel about 10" horizontally for only 3" of height change.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That 90 degree return I believe is the real problem with any of these blown seals. It is true that the BW units typically need a -4AN feed line in order to properly lubricate the turbocharger. But one also has to make sure that these 90 degree AN fittings are not present. If there's not enough room, you're going to have to make room to change, or you'll just experience the same problem again when you rebuild it.

DaveF

what makes you say the 90 is hurting him ? does the oil just "sit" in there ? (at the bottom part of the 90)

i belive it does have some downward slope after the 90 ?

would a convoluted tube help drain oil ? (like dsm's have oem) the convoluted tube is to reduce the "frothyness" if im not mistaken, and should improve drain back ??

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DaveF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what makes you say the 90 is hurting him ? does the oil just "sit" in there ? (at the bottom part of the 90)

i belive it does have some downward slope after the 90 ?

would a convoluted tube help drain oil ? (like dsm's have oem) the convoluted tube is to reduce the "frothyness" if im not mistaken, and should improve drain back ?? </TD></TR></TABLE>

that's exactly it. It can easily "pool" in the bottom of the drain flange, and if he has another 90 degree going into the pan

A convoluted "flex section" doesn't help in his case at all, like it does in a DSM. He needs to change that fitting, find room, and readjust the unit so that it drains properly

T4 Neon

For clarification I have the 90* fitting at the turbo, and a 45* fitting where it enters the block. It does not return to the pan; the stock SRT block actually has a provision for oil return and I use it. Also the portion of the 90* fitting after the bend, is sloping downward ~ 5*. It is not parallel to the ground or worse, sloping up at any point.

Here's an idea.. I could probably use a 45* on the turbo outlet, if I clocked the center section about 45*, so that instead of the return being real close to the "6:00" position, it would be at the "4:30" position instead..

Do you guys think that be better or worse overall? &lt;before I buy another $25 fitting I'll get some more of your free advice &gt;

T4 Neon

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TheShodan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you'll just experience the same problem again when you rebuild it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

... so you're saying that based on this leakage the damage is already done and it needs a rebuild?

welfarepc

i thnk hes saying if u dont correct the problem (the poor drain path) the turbo will blow the seals again after a rebuild.

fix the drain path to be as gravity friendly as possible, and you should be good. no rebuild.

DaveF

i was thinking you could try clocking the center section a bit, so that its not exactly perpendicular to the ground. this should resolve the issue, if it really is that 90.

my oil drain has a 90 just like yours directly off the drain flange, then its pretty much a straight shot to the pan....

sorry for the **** picture, i thought i had a differant one, but i cant seem to find it

Dartanian

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by welfarepc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">fix the drain path to be as gravity friendly as possible, and you should be good. no rebuild. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It needs a minor rebuild. The damage has already been done.

I had the same exact problem: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2324689. I was hoping that fixing the return line by swapping out the 90 degree fitting for a 45 degree one would fix the problem...it didn't. In this case, the piston seal has to be replaced or it will continue to leak/burn oil.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by T4 Neon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

... so you're saying that based on this leakage the damage is already done and it needs a rebuild?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes. Using this 90 degree angle is not good at all, especially on the A853 blocks.