<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notguilty411 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ah ic.. yeah i wish i knew you two months ago also.. ill see what i can do to get it down to 300.. that i could handle.

now as far as fuel pump and pressure regulator.. where is the cheapest place to pick these up at??
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Once again I cannot stress enough that you do not need either of these things to run that nitrous kit properly. If you want to spend the money on something spend it on dyno time instead...you'll get better results.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Once again I cannot stress enough that you do not need either of these things to run that nitrous kit properly. If you want to spend the money on something spend it on dyno time instead...you'll get better results.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Oh yeah dont forget the purge valve lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but as a rule of thumb you don't want to engage it below 3500 rpm. If you do it's not the end of the world but it is harder on the engine like that and should be limited. In first gear below 3500 rpm you'd just get total wheel spin and no traction so it's pointless obviously which is another reason why 3500 + rpm is ideal. </TD></TR></TABLE>

What makes it hard on the engine? I am no way saying it is a good thing to spray at low RPM.

Lets see if you get this one right

This a debate, please, no name calling and stuff you did (I am guilty of it too) in the other thread that got deleted.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What makes it hard on the engine? I am no way saying it is a good thing to spray at low RPM.

Lets see if you get this one right

This a debate, please, no name calling and stuff you did (I am guilty of it too) in the other thread that got deleted.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know you will run very lean under 3500rpm if you were to spray before this point and possibly cause erratic wheel spin and accidently hit redline, which would not be good on the motor!

Im always up for a debate! it allows you to see multiple points of view!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know you will run very lean under 3500rpm if you were to spray before this point and possibly cause erratic wheel spin and accidently hit redline, which would not be good on the motor!</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, if that was the case, you could just tune it out. Traction can be solved.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im always up for a debate! it allows you to see multiple points of view! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Me too. I am trying to keep the "egos" out.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What makes it hard on the engine? I am no way saying it is a good thing to spray at low RPM.

Lets see if you get this one right

This a debate, please, no name calling and stuff you did (I am guilty of it too) in the other thread that got deleted.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The other thread got deleted not because of you and I, but because of someone else who posted some really bizarre, nasty stuff that didn't seem to be directed at anyone specific, so I reported him and they just deleted everything.

I have no problem debating with anyone and I never resort to name calling, I don't recall you doing that either so I think all is well on that front.

As for spraying below 3500 rpm not being a good idea, it's because (as far as the manufacturers are concerned) it generates increased loads (higher cylinder pressures) that could "potentially" bend a rod. This is more of an issue in higher gears like 3-4-5 where lugging an engine while on nitrous (or boost for that matter) is hard on them. As far as I'm concerned it's a good rule of thumb to follow for most people who tend to act irresponsibly anyway. In reality most street kits that are pumping out only 50-75hp run a very small risk of bending a rod with the exception of the D series which have a weaker rod than a B series motor does, but even that is only a slightly higher risk. As I pointed out in my posts above, engaging nitrous in the lower gears in the lower rpm range will generally result in excessive wheel spin so it's pointless to do so and not recommended.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The other thread got deleted not because of you and I, but because of someone else who posted some really bizarre, nasty stuff that didn't seem to be directed at anyone specific, so I reported him and they just deleted everything.

I have no problem debating with anyone and I never resort to name calling, I don't recall you doing that either so I think all is well on that front.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good, I am glad to see that (us) did not lock it up.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for spraying below 3500 rpm not being a good idea, it's because (as far as the manufacturers are concerned) it generates increased loads (higher cylinder pressures) that could "potentially" bend a rod. This is more of an issue in higher gears like 3-4-5 where lugging an engine while on nitrous (or boost for that matter) is hard on them. As far as I'm concerned it's a good rule of thumb to follow for most people who tend to act irresponsibly anyway. In reality most street kits that are pumping out only 50-75hp run a very small risk of bending a rod with the exception of the D series which have a weaker rod than a B series motor does, but even that is only a slightly higher risk. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, you touched on it. Think of it as this. Low rpms will have less air flow as higher RPM. So that the nitrous (and fuel, if wet kit) build up in the intake runner(s). The intake runner will have more pressure than the cylinder will. when the intake valve opens, it fills with nitrous. After that, you can imagine what happens.

Sound good?

BTW, congrats on the shop and dyno, good luck with it!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, you touched on it. Think of it as this. Low rpms will have less air flow as higher RPM. So that the nitrous (and fuel, if wet kit) build up in the intake runner(s). The intake runner will have more pressure than the cylinder will. when the intake valve opens, it fills with nitrous. After that, you can imagine what happens.
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Having a pressurized intake is advantageous in any engine for producing more power. This is the whole engineering principle behind CAI's, long runner intake manifolds, ram air, and of course forced induction. All these things enhance cylinder filling and therefore power. Nitrous should be thought of as nothing more than air which in itself isn't flammable but it allows a combustible substance to be able to be burned (fuel). At lower rpm's nitrous would certainly enhance cylinder filling producing a much more powerful combustion process and therefore power. This is why wheel spin is often the result because of the torque generated. So I generally agree with what you're saying.

PS- I actually sold my shop and got out of the performance business 2 years ago to pursue other interests. I built it from nothing and today it still operates under a different name, but it was time for me to move on. Now I just fool with cars as a hobby which is how it all started for me in the beginning. I still maintain close ties to some of the best tuners in my area and we regularly test parts and tune cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Having a pressurized intake is advantageous in any engine for producing more power. This is the whole engineering principle behind CAI's, long runner intake manifolds, ram air, and of course forced induction. All these things enhance cylinder filling and therefore power. Nitrous should be thought of as nothing more than air which in itself isn't flammable but it allows a combustible substance to be able to be burned (fuel). At lower rpm's nitrous would certainly enhance cylinder filling producing a much more powerful combustion process and therefore power. This is why wheel spin is often the result because of the torque generated. So I generally agree with what you're saying.

PS- I actually sold my shop and got out of the performance business 2 years ago to pursue other interests. I built it from nothing and today it still operates under a different name, but it was time for me to move on. Now I just fool with cars as a hobby which is how it all started for me in the beginning. I still maintain close ties to some of the best tuners in my area and we regularly test parts and tune cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

ok so basically no real need for the fuel pump or fpr, but if anything an fpr, correct? ill most likely run colder plugs if you guys think that would add to the safe side...

if i can talk him down to 300 and i get the kit, i dont really plan on using it all that often, unless of course i get addicted, but lets hope not.. the main reason i want it is for those pesky ricers who come out of nowhere wanting to race all the time.. and its cheap power. thanks for the input..

i plan on talking with my friend this weekend to see if he'll take 300, so hopefully he does

 

build an all-motor...

1.) Have to open bottle every time you drive (or spend $$ on remote opener)
2.) Get great speed - for short periods of time
3.) Bottle refills cost $$$ every time..

Ehh- more fun to have a turbo or a built motor... Consider your investments...

Just my $0.02

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperEG-B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">build an all-motor...

1.) Have to open bottle every time you drive (or spend $$ on remote opener)
2.) Get great speed - for short periods of time
3.) Bottle refills cost $$$ every time..

Ehh- more fun to have a turbo or a built motor... Consider your investments...

Just my $0.02</TD></TR></TABLE>

i agree!


Nitrous is fun and all, but all the money you will spend refilling the bottle over time or upgrading the kit could've gone towrd a turbo setup! Depnding where you live N2O refills cost anywhere in the range of $28-52 for a 10 lb bottle!

I used to run a mild build with nitrous, then I got rid of it and went completely N/A!

 

In my opinion to your original question, A 55 WET shot is alright. i ran a 55 shot on my 02 civic coupe no problems once so ever. Make sure you get colder plugs so there is no misfiring. Other than that you are alright. With just a 55 shot you dont need to retard your timing at all, i never did and it was fine. Make sure you are carefull and dont miss too many gears b/c hitting the rev limiter and spraying can be lethal. Also dont be too impatient with it. Only spray when you need to other wise your motor will wear out too fast. Good Luck with your nitrous. If you have any further questions on nitrous i will be willing to help, i am pretty smart with nitrous.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SprayinR21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In my opinion to your original question, A 55 WET shot is alright. i ran a 55 shot on my 02 civic coupe no problems once so ever. Make sure you get colder plugs so there is no misfiring. Other than that you are alright. With just a 55 shot you dont need to retard your timing at all, i never did and it was fine. Make sure you are carefull and dont miss too many gears b/c hitting the rev limiter and spraying can be lethal. Also dont be too impatient with it. Only spray when you need to other wise your motor will wear out too fast. Good Luck with your nitrous. If you have any further questions on nitrous i will be willing to help, i am pretty smart with nitrous.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not trying to be an ***, but if you were really smart with nitrous you'd know that it will NOT wear your engine out faster from using it. Like I've said before in other posts, an engine can't tell the difference internally between boost or nitrous. They both do exactly the same thing which is add more air to the combustion process so more fuel can be burned which is what produces the power. FI does this mechanically by pumping more air and nitrous does it through spraying a gas with a higher O2 content to it than regular atmosphere. Telling someone to not spray to much is like telling someone running boost not to step on the gas to much.

Also if you read back through this thread you'll see that the spark plug issue was already addressed. At a 55 shot he won't need to go to colder plugs, at most he may have to close the plug gaps slightly if he was to experience any misfiring, but I highly doubt it. I run a 75hp shot on STOCK plugs and gaps without ever having any problems.

To the others that say go NA or boost etc...not nitrous... For someone that may not do much racing and wants a quick and reliable everyday driver, nitrous is the perfect choice. Most of the time we don't need or use the kind of power FI gives you so having nitrous there only when you need it is an economical alternative. Now you have an engine that is NA reliable with reasonable power and fuel economy for everyday use with the power of an FI engine available at a fraction of the cost. You'll have to fill a lot of bottles to come close to the cost of an FI kit and by that time most people have sold their cars anyway.

 

I agree with most everything that you said. i do not agree that nitrous is the same as boost. I would like to see you run that 75 shot of nitrous everytime you hit 4500 rpms like a turbo when it spools. Your sleeves start to wear out much faster. Trust me i am not a hater on nitrous i used to be a huge fan until i went boost. i recommend nitrous for someone who doesnt have enough money to do boost right. Maybe your motor is running alright on stock plugs but i sure wouldnt recommend it. Why not be safe and run a step colder and bridged **** they dont cost that much.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm not trying to be an ***, but if you were really smart with nitrous you'd know that it will NOT wear your engine out faster from using it. Like I've said before in other posts, an engine can't tell the difference internally between boost or nitrous. They both do exactly the same thing which is add more air to the combustion process so more fuel can be burned which is what produces the power. FI does this mechanically by pumping more air and nitrous does it through spraying a gas with a higher O2 content to it than regular atmosphere. Telling someone to not spray to much is like telling someone running boost not to step on the gas to much.

Also if you read back through this thread you'll see that the spark plug issue was already addressed. At a 55 shot he won't need to go to colder plugs, at most he may have to close the plug gaps slightly if he was to experience any misfiring, but I highly doubt it. I run a 75hp shot on STOCK plugs and gaps without ever having any problems.

To the others that say go NA or boost etc...not nitrous... For someone that may not do much racing and wants a quick and reliable everyday driver, nitrous is the perfect choice. Most of the time we don't need or use the kind of power FI gives you so having nitrous there only when you need it is an economical alternative. Now you have an engine that is NA reliable with reasonable power and fuel economy for everyday use with the power of an FI engine available at a fraction of the cost. You'll have to fill a lot of bottles to come close to the cost of an FI kit and by that time most people have sold their cars anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True but it depends on how addicted you get! Most ppl only use nitrous once in a while but I know a few ppl that fill their bottle or bottles weekly! Thats alot of N2O!!! But like I said most ppl dont spend that much! And also if you account the cost of a new wet kit or direct port($450-700), purge(optional $70-100), Bottle heater(optional-but HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, $100), and all other optional pieces you can get as expensive as a turbo kit! But the key is get what you need and dont go overboard!

The reason I recommend the bottle warmer is depending on where you live it may get cold! And even if it doesnt when you plan to use it you want the nitrous to be at optimum temperature for best power gains! This is usually betwwen 1000-1100 PSI, anything higher can be dangerous! And cold nitrous is not good to spray with(650-700psi and below) and can cause severe motor damage!


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SprayinR21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree with most everything that you said. i do not agree that nitrous is the same as boost. I would like to see you run that 75 shot of nitrous everytime you hit 4500 rpms like a turbo when it spools. Your sleeves start to wear out much faster. Trust me i am not a hater on nitrous i used to be a huge fan until i went boost. i recommend nitrous for someone who doesnt have enough money to do boost right. Maybe your motor is running alright on stock plugs but i sure wouldnt recommend it. Why not be safe and run a step colder and bridged **** they dont cost that much.</TD></TR></TABLE>


NGK BKR7E $1.99ea

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SprayinR21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> i do not agree that nitrous is the same as boost. I would like to see you run that 75 shot of nitrous everytime you hit 4500 rpms like a turbo when it spools. Your sleeves start to wear out much faster. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've already established the fact that simply pumping nitrous or air into an engine via forced induction will make 0 power without fuel. It's the fuel that gives you the extra power not the gas or extra air...they simply allow more fuel to be burned and therefore the engine makes more power. With that being said, how is enabling your engine to burn more fuel using nitrous to supply the extra air required, harder on an engine than supplying that same engine with the air it requires from forced induction?? It's just air.....from one source or another and that's why your engine doesn't know the difference and why once activated or on boost, no more or less additional stress. If you still think nitrous is harder on the engine than boost, please explain the logic behind your thinking to me.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SprayinR21 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Maybe your motor is running alright on stock plugs but i sure wouldnt recommend it. Why not be safe and run a step colder and bridged **** they dont cost that much.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with what you're saying to a point. It's true that at 75 hp most people really should be looking at timing retard or slightly colder plugs but he's only running a 55 shot. At that level some of these recommended changes will have an impact on the way his car will perform when he's not running the nitrous. Retarding the timing by -2 degrees would certainly be safe but it will also cause the car to have poor off idle throttle response. Colder plugs would probably have less of an effect but the bottom line is, it's ok to wanna be safe but don't over do it and have it cost you performance when there's really no need for it to. The advice I gave him was at a 55hp setting where extra precautions just aren't required.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid_vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The reason I recommend the bottle warmer is depending on where you live it may get cold! And even if it doesnt when you plan to use it you want the nitrous to be at optimum temperature for best power gains! This is usually betwwen 1000-1100 PSI, anything higher can be dangerous! And cold nitrous is not good to spray with(650-700psi and below) and can cause severe motor damage!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

NOS recommends maintaining your bottle pressure at about 950 psi for optimal system operation. Some other manufactures like NX recommend around 1000 - 1050 psi for optimal performance. Always go with what the manufacturer suggests since that's the pressure that they designed the kit and jetting to work at properly. If the bottle pressure is low (650-700 psi) and you spray it it WILL NOT CAUSE SEVERE ENGINE DAMAGE. What it will do is run very rich and get too much fuel and not enough nitrous to help burn it. This leads to very little power gain and lots of black smoke out the back pipe.


Modified by 00Red_SiR at 5:12 PM 12/4/2004

 

you guys are really giving tons of good info here so keep it up! i appreciate it..


still no word on whether ill get the kit for 300 or not, he said hed have to think about it... so hopefully soon.

saying that i do get it, you guys reccomend a bottle heater correct.. and did i read somewhere that the zex heaters suck?? so if thats true, which one to go with?

also i think purge kits are pretty friggen cool, but i never understood there actual purpose.. anyone care to inform me?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by notguilty411 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you guys are really giving tons of good info here so keep it up! i appreciate it..


still no word on whether ill get the kit for 300 or not, he said hed have to think about it... so hopefully soon.

saying that i do get it, you guys reccomend a bottle heater correct.. and did i read somewhere that the zex heaters suck?? so if thats true, which one to go with?

also i think purge kits are pretty friggen cool, but i never understood there actual purpose.. anyone care to inform me?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A purge kit is used to clear the air from the line for better response! Manufacturer's claim this is worth shaving 2 tenthes(.2) off of your time, but that is not true(at least in most cases)!

 

makes sense.. well i just ended up spending money on new exhaust piping and a bunch of dynamat.. so im looking at the end of dec/jan for the nitrous.. ill keep everyone updated

 

Man I wish this had an audio feed, because that man would get a round of applause from me. First off you need to be a monk to exercise the self restraint needed not to throw in the 75 shot, and second of all an F.P.R. and a fuel pump or any of those other precautions this dude mentioned are far cheaper that some busted ****. As far as N20 killing engines, I agree... STUPID PEOPLE WRECK ENGINES not nitrous! Its beautiful to see so much good information for free. This honda **** almost brings me to tears...

 

the best info. on nitrous precautions I have ever read !!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbogixxer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What makes it hard on the engine? I am no way saying it is a good thing to spray at low RPM.</TD></TR></TABLE> A little late.. But I think one of the reasons is people don't know how long or what not to use it... Using it creates alot of heat and if you use nitrous too long in one time period it can cause damage.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiKid86 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> A little late.. But I think one of the reasons is people don't know how long or what not to use it... Using it creates alot of heat and if you use nitrous too long in one time period it can cause damage.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Using nitrous creates heat but no more than boost would and it's only slightly more than an NA engine would create. Boosting or using nitrous will raise cylinder pressures more than it will raise temps unless the system isn't tuned and is running lean. A lean condition will cause engine damage in any setup, not just a nitrous one.