See Are X

what should I do? get a program with stock timing? or MSD 6BTM? how does that work with n2o?

raene

With nitrous you want to take out timing.
Chips normally add timing

I don't think it'll work out too well unless you get a chip that backs out timing at the high end!

T-RO

if hes OBD1 he can use one of the available ROM Editors and do what he wants with the chip.

See Are X

where can I get a ROM editor?

T-RO

The two main OBD1 rom editors floating around are Crome, and Uberdata.
You can find Uberdata in this forum, look for the 16 page thread.
Crome can be found on Pgmfi.org

good luck

80884

I often find this chipped ecu and nitrous discusion a bunch of crap. yes nitrous and adding timing is not good. and everyone says that chipped ecu's are bad to use because it will blow up your car with nitrous. my question is why do they say this?

so the chipped ecu adds timing and fuel...wait what, adds fuel too right? fuel and nitrous = timing and nitrous = so just remove the necesary timing and you will be fine.

I say this because i ran this set up on my civic last year. b16a2, I, H, E, 2 1/2 exh, 255lph fuel pump, Bk7re spark plugs, chipped ecu Mugen program, and the zex kit, 75 shot, timing at 8 degrees (stock is 16). car did not blow up, car ran great, plugs looked good. another thing to add.....

I had the 75 shot hooked up wrong and the car was not adding anymore fuel then stock, with the chipped ecu and guess what, it didn't blow up. VERY lucky I know but it still runs fine today, compression good and all.

but anyway back on the subject. what should you do? take out more timing then you are suposed to and work your way up untill you find the best and safest timing for your set up. I ran my car at 8 degrees with pretty much the same as your setup and ended up running a 13.30 at 91 mph. yes i let off, the run before was at 103 mph. 12's ??? have to wait till march to find out.

yes your car will run like crap with retarded timing when not spraying, but in my case when i wanted to go fast it was with the nitrous and retarded timing, not advanced timing and no nitrous.

No i am not smart, i do not know everything about nitrous, i'm just going by hands on experience. and thats where i learn best. Cuz if i went by what some fellow ht'rs told me before. "your car will blow up if you use the chiped ecu and nitrous" then i would have wasted money buying stock ecu or other programs to retain stock timing. IMO the chipped ecu will make it run better then the stock one when spraying provided you have the timing right. that is the key. cuz honestly what else with a chipped ecu is bad for nitrous other then advancing the hell out of the timing? wich you can fix by retarding the timing and still retaining the added fuel from the chipped ecu.

80884

this one.... https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=694581

Mr. Softee

get a daughterboard and run a separate map when nitrous is engaged.

raene

That's nice that you've run Mugen proggies and nitrous, but it's not really the best way. Why not just write your own programs that turn down the timing when you spray and still retain off-nitrous performance? The only way you didn't blow up is that you're running 8 degrees retarded - basically taking any power from the Mugen program and wasting it. You said yourself it sucks to drive around.

80884

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by raene &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's nice that you've run Mugen proggies and nitrous, but it's not really the best way. Why not just write your own programs that turn down the timing when you spray and still retain off-nitrous performance? The only way you didn't blow up is that you're running 8 degrees retarded - basically taking any power from the Mugen program and wasting it. You said yourself it sucks to drive around.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no it's not the best way, i never said it was.

yes a program that does retard timing when spraying would be nice and is only retarding when nitrous is activated. I don't have that set up and was just explaining what i did, which cost me nothing.

as for not blowing up, yes, that was my goal. the problem with the chip and nitrous was that it advances the timing to much to be safely used with the spray, so i eliminated that when i turned the timing back to 8 degrees, BUT! with the extra advance from the chip it is not like runing a stock program at 8 degrees. and besides this was for at the track only, before i leave the track i get my light and my wrench and set it back to 16 deg. again not the best way but it works and takes only about 5 mins.

I personally would like to have a program like i do but that also has the same program with no timing advance that can be changed when the nitrous is activated. But i don't know who makes one or how to do it.

PHiZ

Well for starters, the mugen program doesn't advance timing, um, at all. Like zero. None. Nada.

-PHiZ

(none)

Killer_B

i don't think you want to use a Mugen Program. i personally try to stay away from them becuz it's too rich all around. my car ran great with a Vision and Skunk2 Program. i had the Vtec Point @ 5,600 on both programs.

my basic set up was a stock internal B16, all the basic bolts-on, 255pump, MSD and Direct Port NOS 120 shot. Timing was at 12 or 13deg. my average run was 13.1 but the car ran faster when it hooked up well.

at 8deg of timing your car will run like an absolute pig. it's not necessay to take that much timing out *if* you're only running a 75 shot. the basic rule is that you take out 1-2deg of timing for every 50 shot of nitrous.

See Are X

I will only be running a ZEX 55 shot dry kit...right now i'm running on IH8RICERZ custom all motor chip. If you say take out 1-2deg of timing every 50 shot, how many more degrees should I take away to compensate for the additional timing on this chip?

Killer_B

with good octane gas, good plugs and healthy motor...you could set the timing at 14deg to be safe but you car also try 15deg if everything is holding up.

i would personally leave it at 16deg but i don't know much about the chip that you have.

raene

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 80884 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I personally would like to have a program like i do but that also has the same program with no timing advance that can be changed when the nitrous is activated. But i don't know who makes one or how to do it.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

There isn't anyone I know of running a dual-map setup like this, but that's what 94goldjungsr was telling you to do. It's possible but it's one of the few things for a honda that hasn't been done eight trillion times already Kinda funny that it actually has no timing advance whatsoever... interesting. Hmmm. So basically from what PHiZ is saying you don't need to retard your timing that much before racing - no more than what you would do on a stock chip.

See Are X, can't say without looking at where the chip has advanced timing and how much.

http://www.ecimulti.org/uberdata/ &lt;--- DIY always gets

pdx_accord

Yeah you can do the advanced timing bit with nitrous it just takes away your safety margin. That one bad tank of gas, slight injector hiccup or whatever. The below shots are of a VW engine that was chipped with a 55 then 75 shot of zex. It ran for 3 months with the 55, then another at 75, octane booster with the juice when we raced it.



Maybe if we had kept it at 55 it would have lasted but who knows. Most of the common recommendations out there: lower compression for turbos, retard timing for nitrous and all that are for safety's sake. Plenty of you can do it w/out all that but it just lessons your safety margin.

If you have a cheap engine like the above VW or a D series, go for it...

80884

you may be right but the chip i got does advance total timing, with a stock p30 we got about 40 degrees at 7k wot. this was checked with a light, so we then check the chipped p28 (whatever chip, guy told me mugen program, i could be wrong but that is what he told me) anyway the chiped p28 was at 45 degrees at only 6k wot, and continued to go higher up untill 7k where we stoped. was way above 45 when we stoped at 7k. Maybe the guy i got it from is retarded and i would not doubt that, but either way timing advance was definately there with this chip.

I'm looking into another chip or even a stock program cuz this is my daily driver and gas milage does kind of suck since it got colder out.

either way i know nothing about the ecu i have anyway, just know it works and gets the job done, thats why now i'm looking into getting something better. 2 programs in one would be cool if someone did it.

PHiZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 80884 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you may be right but the chip i got does advance total timing, with a stock p30 we got about 40 degrees at 7k wot. this was checked with a light, so we then check the chipped p28 (whatever chip, guy told me mugen program, i could be wrong but that is what he told me) anyway the chiped p28 was at 45 degrees at only 6k wot, and continued to go higher up untill 7k where we stoped. was way above 45 when we stoped at 7k</TD></TR></TABLE>

Um, yeah, high RPM at NO LOAD you can easily see 45 degrees advanced, in the stock rom.

-PHiZ

80884

either way the chipped ecu showed more advanced timing under the same testing conditions, weather my numbers are off or not, the chipped ecu always has more advanced timing, even if it is at high rpm no load. IDK how to check it when i'm driving down the road so how do i test with a load without a dyno?

raene

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 80884 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you may be right but the chip i got does advance total timing, with a stock p30 we got about 40 degrees at 7k wot. this was checked with a light, so we then check the chipped p28 (whatever chip, guy told me mugen program, i could be wrong but that is what he told me) anyway the chiped p28 was at 45 degrees at only 6k wot, and continued to go higher up untill 7k where we stoped. was way above 45 when we stoped at 7k. Maybe the guy i got it from is retarded and i would not doubt that, but either way timing advance was definately there with this chip.</TD></TR></TABLE>



You can see (the highest line is the no-load line) how much advance there is on this basically stock P30 mapping... on the P28 baseline mapping I'm looking at there's almost 45 degrees timing advance, stock, with no load. Don't take my word for it, go to the Uberdata site, download some bins and play around...

ITRswapandslow

http://www.pgmfi.org/phorum

or get a hold of J.Davis

but, get a chipped ecu and use the auto tranny TQ converter lock up as the control for the nitrous solenoid...and run 440's to add the needed fuel...it's safe this way...and very easy to hook up and run

See Are X

what about this....I leave the chip with its advanced timing, then at 5600rpm drop it to the stock timing...so at about 5800rpm, thats when i'll be using the n2o...and retard the timing 2 degrees at the dist. Would that run crappy NA?

Killer_B

i don't know why you guys are making such a big deal out of this.

just get a Spoon, Vision or Skunk2 Program and set your timing at about 14-15deg at the distributor. you'll be good with a 50-60 shot.

Killer_B

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by See Are X &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I will only be running a ZEX 55 shot dry kit...right now i'm running on IH8RICERZ custom all motor chip. If you say take out 1-2deg of timing every 50 shot, how many more degrees should I take away to compensate for the additional timing on this chip?</TD></TR></TABLE>


i wouldn't use an all motor program with nitrous unless you know the maxium amout of timing that it will make ur motor ran at. all motor programs tend to advance timing up top. if you do use it, set ur timing at 14deg.

Dammit_Dan_954

I have a mugen ecu with 5700 rpm vtec and I think 9500 or 10k redline. I will be spraying a min 100 shot on my motor once it's together which is cp pistons @ about 12.0:1 comp in my b18c1. I am going to keep my timing @ 16 degrees and just get a msd digital 6 plus to retard my timing when I spray. The digital 6 only retards your timing when spraying. I will also be using 310cc injectors. Also prob only gonna spray on av gas, which is around 101 octane.

If anyone knows anymore details on the digital 6 can u retard it by as much as u want or if it is adjustable what is the retard range 0 deg to what????