new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
12-12-2015, 07:50 AM
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new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Hey guys, so I just finished installing a cheapo godspeed kit on my b20 teg,
I had to remove the cooling fan which is shitty, but luckily Im in Denver right now and can do with out.
Another thing I bumped into and was hoping someones wisdom could give me some insight was, The down pipe they included hangs EXTREMELY low.
Like Ive driven it over 2 speed bumps and I am already starting to tear the **** up.
My question is, If I clocked the hot side of the turbo, and would this essentially angle the pipe "up more"
Like that seems to make sense in my head, since the DP points downward too much where it meets the cat, I figured if I clocked the hotside clockwise, it might work to point it upwards more, Thoughts???
We have stupid emissions nonsense in denver so finding a muffler shop to hook me up is kinda tough.
My 2nd question is,
I have a 5psi tial spring in my waste gate, and right now I am only running that, I have a mbc sitting on my work bench, but I only want to run 5 psi, so how would that work? I hear the turbo will spool better and hold boost better on a mbc, but you cant really use one for WG pressure considering the MBC would just be set all the way soft right??? or am I wrong?
Thanks guys.
I had to remove the cooling fan which is shitty, but luckily Im in Denver right now and can do with out.
Another thing I bumped into and was hoping someones wisdom could give me some insight was, The down pipe they included hangs EXTREMELY low.
Like Ive driven it over 2 speed bumps and I am already starting to tear the **** up.
My question is, If I clocked the hot side of the turbo, and would this essentially angle the pipe "up more"
Like that seems to make sense in my head, since the DP points downward too much where it meets the cat, I figured if I clocked the hotside clockwise, it might work to point it upwards more, Thoughts???
We have stupid emissions nonsense in denver so finding a muffler shop to hook me up is kinda tough.
My 2nd question is,
I have a 5psi tial spring in my waste gate, and right now I am only running that, I have a mbc sitting on my work bench, but I only want to run 5 psi, so how would that work? I hear the turbo will spool better and hold boost better on a mbc, but you cant really use one for WG pressure considering the MBC would just be set all the way soft right??? or am I wrong?
Thanks guys.
12-12-2015, 09:06 AM
#4
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
I'm still wondering how the hell you plan on clocking the hot side and bolting it the manifold
12-12-2015, 09:23 AM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
hahahhahahah holy ****, I feel retarded.
I'll see myself out.......
For some reason I had this thought in my head from when I had to rotate the core and flip the drain/feed to the proper side that the hot side moved.....
FKIN WOW.
go me!
I'll see myself out.......
For some reason I had this thought in my head from when I had to rotate the core and flip the drain/feed to the proper side that the hot side moved.....
FKIN WOW.
go me!
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12-12-2015, 03:17 PM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Removing the radiator fan no matter how low the ambient temps are is stupid. At low speeds and a standstill the engine will overheat. If you're doing this without an aftermarket coolant temp gauge or laptop displaying ECT then you're even dumber because by the time the needle on the stock cluster reaches halfway you're already overheating.
I also see no mention of engine management. Forced induction on a stock ecu, fuel pump, and injectors is the dumbest thing anyone can do regardless of how low the pressure levels are.
Granted your eBay turbo kit will be the first thing to fail.
I also see no mention of engine management. Forced induction on a stock ecu, fuel pump, and injectors is the dumbest thing anyone can do regardless of how low the pressure levels are.
Granted your eBay turbo kit will be the first thing to fail.
12-13-2015, 11:49 AM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Removing the radiator fan no matter how low the ambient temps are is stupid. At low speeds and a standstill the engine will overheat. If you're doing this without an aftermarket coolant temp gauge or laptop displaying ECT then you're even dumber because by the time the needle on the stock cluster reaches halfway you're already overheating.
I also see no mention of engine management. Forced induction on a stock ecu, fuel pump, and injectors is the dumbest thing anyone can do regardless of how low the pressure levels are.
Granted your eBay turbo kit will be the first thing to fail.
I also see no mention of engine management. Forced induction on a stock ecu, fuel pump, and injectors is the dumbest thing anyone can do regardless of how low the pressure levels are.
Granted your eBay turbo kit will be the first thing to fail.
because that is completely unrelated to the albeit dumb question I asked.
I have a chipped p28 on Neptune.
I already have a 16" slim fan on the way, and a half sized radiator. It is 20 degrees here right now so my 10 min constant flow of traffic commute I will be fine. but thanks bro.
12-13-2015, 12:42 PM
#10
Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
where are you gonna fit that 16" fan?
on the downpipe issue just get it modified to fit.
on the spring pressure you don't need a boost controller. run vacuum line from side of wastegate to compressor cover.
on the downpipe issue just get it modified to fit.
on the spring pressure you don't need a boost controller. run vacuum line from side of wastegate to compressor cover.
12-15-2015, 05:26 AM
#12
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Hey guys, so I just finished installing a cheapo godspeed kit on my b20 teg,
I had to remove the cooling fan which is shitty, but luckily Im in Denver right now and can do with out.
Another thing I bumped into and was hoping someones wisdom could give me some insight was, The down pipe they included hangs EXTREMELY low.
Like Ive driven it over 2 speed bumps and I am already starting to tear the **** up.
My question is, If I clocked the hot side of the turbo, and would this essentially angle the pipe "up more"
Like that seems to make sense in my head, since the DP points downward too much where it meets the cat, I figured if I clocked the hotside clockwise, it might work to point it upwards more, Thoughts???
We have stupid emissions nonsense in denver so finding a muffler shop to hook me up is kinda tough.
My 2nd question is,
I have a 5psi tial spring in my waste gate, and right now I am only running that, I have a mbc sitting on my work bench, but I only want to run 5 psi, so how would that work? I hear the turbo will spool better and hold boost better on a mbc, but you cant really use one for WG pressure considering the MBC would just be set all the way soft right??? or am I wrong?
I had to remove the cooling fan which is shitty, but luckily Im in Denver right now and can do with out.
Another thing I bumped into and was hoping someones wisdom could give me some insight was, The down pipe they included hangs EXTREMELY low.
Like Ive driven it over 2 speed bumps and I am already starting to tear the **** up.
My question is, If I clocked the hot side of the turbo, and would this essentially angle the pipe "up more"
Like that seems to make sense in my head, since the DP points downward too much where it meets the cat, I figured if I clocked the hotside clockwise, it might work to point it upwards more, Thoughts???
We have stupid emissions nonsense in denver so finding a muffler shop to hook me up is kinda tough.
My 2nd question is,
I have a 5psi tial spring in my waste gate, and right now I am only running that, I have a mbc sitting on my work bench, but I only want to run 5 psi, so how would that work? I hear the turbo will spool better and hold boost better on a mbc, but you cant really use one for WG pressure considering the MBC would just be set all the way soft right??? or am I wrong?
1. Get a slimline fan LINK. You dont want to run with no radiator fan...the next time you're stuck in traffic, you'll see why.
2. If the DP is connected to the exhaust, clocking the turbo is just going to misalign the bolt holes. This will likely require someone to cut and weld the dp so it actually fits. This being the problem with cheapo kits - they're a "one size fits all" that doesn't really fit anything well. Muffler shops wont want to touch anything pre-catalytic converter (or at least where it should have been) for emissions reasons. Find a welding shop, they'll do whatever you want if the piece is off the vehicle.
3. Spooling faster with an MBC is a load of crap. The reason for a manual boost controller is to increase the WG spring pressure over what it is currently. If you want to run 5psi and you have a 5psi spring in the WG, then there's no need for an MBC. Having said that, when you tune it, you'll want to run more than a pathetic 5psi, so get an MBC, but not for the reasons you mentioned above. If you were to route the MBC inline with the current WG, you'd open up the MBC so it does nothing and leave it alone...so, all the way soft like you're saying.
12-15-2015, 06:40 AM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Yea you can't make the turbo spool faster with a MBC, only an EBC can hold the gate completely shut.
Using your 5psi spring as an example, the gate will start to open well before the 5psi point if running off of spring pressure. Running an MBC will raise boost levels but the gate will still open before whatever pressure you run is generated. The spring rate determines boost pressure by limiting how much the valve opens overall but because that pressure is made at maximum valve travel positive pressure will start to open the valve well before 5psi.
With the gate opening well before target pressure is reached that means exhaust gases are bypassing the turbine wheel before target boost levels which means the turbocharger spools slower.
A MBC is just a bleed valve... So all it does is bleed pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm which simply causes the valve to open less for a given spring pressure thus raising base boost pressures. It still allows pressure to reach the valve before target boost pressure is made. This means the turbo responds slower than it would with a stiffer spring or EBC.
Only an electronic boost controller can keep the valve completely shut until just before target boost pressure is made and only by keeping the gate totally shut can you make the turbo spool faster.
And again on the fan topic. It's so cold that when the car is moving you might not have an issue but as soon as the car comes to a stop it will start to overheat. Air has to pass THROUGH the radiator in order to lower coolant temperatures. Sitting still with no radiator fan means it will start to overheat.
You could be in the Arctic Cricle of Alaska in winter and even then if a vehicle sat still with no radiator fan it would eventually overheat. Now if you were sitting still in like a 30-40mph wind then you might be ok lol.
Go crank up your car and let it sit in the driveway. You'll see it overheat eventually.
And there's no way you'll be able to fit a 16" fan on a half core radiator. They are only 14.5" wide... If any part of the fan blades/shroud sit outside of the radiator core then fan efficiency will drop way off as will the amount of air being pulled through the radiator. Air takes the path of least resistance which in this case wouldn't be through the radiator but around it. Hell the OEM shroud is only 14" X 13.5" and the the fan is 12.5" so if you thought clearance was hard with the OEM fan wait until you try to put a 16" on it lol.
Stop pulling the trigger on buying random **** and actually take the time to do some research first. You're going to need a different fan... You could get away with a 14" as a pusher fan or a 12" fan behind the radiator like the OEM one.
Using your 5psi spring as an example, the gate will start to open well before the 5psi point if running off of spring pressure. Running an MBC will raise boost levels but the gate will still open before whatever pressure you run is generated. The spring rate determines boost pressure by limiting how much the valve opens overall but because that pressure is made at maximum valve travel positive pressure will start to open the valve well before 5psi.
With the gate opening well before target pressure is reached that means exhaust gases are bypassing the turbine wheel before target boost levels which means the turbocharger spools slower.
A MBC is just a bleed valve... So all it does is bleed pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm which simply causes the valve to open less for a given spring pressure thus raising base boost pressures. It still allows pressure to reach the valve before target boost pressure is made. This means the turbo responds slower than it would with a stiffer spring or EBC.
Only an electronic boost controller can keep the valve completely shut until just before target boost pressure is made and only by keeping the gate totally shut can you make the turbo spool faster.
And again on the fan topic. It's so cold that when the car is moving you might not have an issue but as soon as the car comes to a stop it will start to overheat. Air has to pass THROUGH the radiator in order to lower coolant temperatures. Sitting still with no radiator fan means it will start to overheat.
You could be in the Arctic Cricle of Alaska in winter and even then if a vehicle sat still with no radiator fan it would eventually overheat. Now if you were sitting still in like a 30-40mph wind then you might be ok lol.
Go crank up your car and let it sit in the driveway. You'll see it overheat eventually.
And there's no way you'll be able to fit a 16" fan on a half core radiator. They are only 14.5" wide... If any part of the fan blades/shroud sit outside of the radiator core then fan efficiency will drop way off as will the amount of air being pulled through the radiator. Air takes the path of least resistance which in this case wouldn't be through the radiator but around it. Hell the OEM shroud is only 14" X 13.5" and the the fan is 12.5" so if you thought clearance was hard with the OEM fan wait until you try to put a 16" on it lol.
Stop pulling the trigger on buying random **** and actually take the time to do some research first. You're going to need a different fan... You could get away with a 14" as a pusher fan or a 12" fan behind the radiator like the OEM one.
12-17-2015, 11:37 AM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Yea you can't make the turbo spool faster with a MBC, only an EBC can hold the gate completely shut.
Using your 5psi spring as an example, the gate will start to open well before the 5psi point if running off of spring pressure. Running an MBC will raise boost levels but the gate will still open before whatever pressure you run is generated. The spring rate determines boost pressure by limiting how much the valve opens overall but because that pressure is made at maximum valve travel positive pressure will start to open the valve well before 5psi.
With the gate opening well before target pressure is reached that means exhaust gases are bypassing the turbine wheel before target boost levels which means the turbocharger spools slower.
A MBC is just a bleed valve... So all it does is bleed pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm which simply causes the valve to open less for a given spring pressure thus raising base boost pressures. It still allows pressure to reach the valve before target boost pressure is made. This means the turbo responds slower than it would with a stiffer spring or EBC.
Only an electronic boost controller can keep the valve completely shut until just before target boost pressure is made and only by keeping the gate totally shut can you make the turbo spool faster.
And again on the fan topic. It's so cold that when the car is moving you might not have an issue but as soon as the car comes to a stop it will start to overheat. Air has to pass THROUGH the radiator in order to lower coolant temperatures. Sitting still with no radiator fan means it will start to overheat.
You could be in the Arctic Cricle of Alaska in winter and even then if a vehicle sat still with no radiator fan it would eventually overheat. Now if you were sitting still in like a 30-40mph wind then you might be ok lol.
Go crank up your car and let it sit in the driveway. You'll see it overheat eventually.
And there's no way you'll be able to fit a 16" fan on a half core radiator. They are only 14.5" wide... If any part of the fan blades/shroud sit outside of the radiator core then fan efficiency will drop way off as will the amount of air being pulled through the radiator. Air takes the path of least resistance which in this case wouldn't be through the radiator but around it. Hell the OEM shroud is only 14" X 13.5" and the the fan is 12.5" so if you thought clearance was hard with the OEM fan wait until you try to put a 16" on it lol.
Stop pulling the trigger on buying random **** and actually take the time to do some research first. You're going to need a different fan... You could get away with a 14" as a pusher fan or a 12" fan behind the radiator like the OEM one.
Using your 5psi spring as an example, the gate will start to open well before the 5psi point if running off of spring pressure. Running an MBC will raise boost levels but the gate will still open before whatever pressure you run is generated. The spring rate determines boost pressure by limiting how much the valve opens overall but because that pressure is made at maximum valve travel positive pressure will start to open the valve well before 5psi.
With the gate opening well before target pressure is reached that means exhaust gases are bypassing the turbine wheel before target boost levels which means the turbocharger spools slower.
A MBC is just a bleed valve... So all it does is bleed pressure away from the wastegate diaphragm which simply causes the valve to open less for a given spring pressure thus raising base boost pressures. It still allows pressure to reach the valve before target boost pressure is made. This means the turbo responds slower than it would with a stiffer spring or EBC.
Only an electronic boost controller can keep the valve completely shut until just before target boost pressure is made and only by keeping the gate totally shut can you make the turbo spool faster.
And again on the fan topic. It's so cold that when the car is moving you might not have an issue but as soon as the car comes to a stop it will start to overheat. Air has to pass THROUGH the radiator in order to lower coolant temperatures. Sitting still with no radiator fan means it will start to overheat.
You could be in the Arctic Cricle of Alaska in winter and even then if a vehicle sat still with no radiator fan it would eventually overheat. Now if you were sitting still in like a 30-40mph wind then you might be ok lol.
Go crank up your car and let it sit in the driveway. You'll see it overheat eventually.
And there's no way you'll be able to fit a 16" fan on a half core radiator. They are only 14.5" wide... If any part of the fan blades/shroud sit outside of the radiator core then fan efficiency will drop way off as will the amount of air being pulled through the radiator. Air takes the path of least resistance which in this case wouldn't be through the radiator but around it. Hell the OEM shroud is only 14" X 13.5" and the the fan is 12.5" so if you thought clearance was hard with the OEM fan wait until you try to put a 16" on it lol.
Stop pulling the trigger on buying random **** and actually take the time to do some research first. You're going to need a different fan... You could get away with a 14" as a pusher fan or a 12" fan behind the radiator like the OEM one.
12-17-2015, 12:13 PM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
I appreciate you guys ignoring my retardness, hahaha
And thank you for the educated information,
I do have a 12" fan, not 16" it just came in yesterday, and is already mounted.
Although my post may not tell you so, I am pretty well versed with mechanics and especially cooling systems, I have tracked and raced my RC51 for multiple seasons, if that doesn't mean anything to you, google it. lol
I have ran no fans, pushers, pullers, side mount and front mount radiators, and all sorts of different configurations.
I should have absolutely connected a real temp gauge for not running a fan, I do agree. But like I said the cooling game is really nothing new to me.
What I did also do was take the a/c fan, and flip it around in the mounting and reverse the polarity, and mounted it as a pusher, (common mod on rc51's) and I now have my slim puller style like factory, funny thing is from when I was running no fan, my temp gauge is the exact same, and I can tell you why,
Go outside and get a LED or normal light bulb connect the wires to your fan switch, run the light on your windshield so you can see when the signal gets power, that's when your fan turns on. My fan was never signaled to turn on outside of being stuck in traffic at which point I just shut her off, Just like I do on my rc51 and my 1000rr in the humid summer times.
I also appreciate the info on the MBC, that was the kind of educated response I was hoping for, and it technically makes sense to me,
even though I have read things that disagree with that, the ball and spring in a MBC technically I would imagine work just like the wg valve does, moving further and further as the set tension is reached, its not a simple ON/OFF like a 3 port EVC would be that also senses boost pressure.
IT would make sense if you had the MBC tuned to say 7 psi, the the ball and spring would compress more and more as you get closer as its a spring and has progressive tension just like any other spring.
Makes perfect sense.
Thanks guys.
Also, Im just going to get my DP cut and rewelded.
And thank you for the educated information,
I do have a 12" fan, not 16" it just came in yesterday, and is already mounted.
Although my post may not tell you so, I am pretty well versed with mechanics and especially cooling systems, I have tracked and raced my RC51 for multiple seasons, if that doesn't mean anything to you, google it. lol
I have ran no fans, pushers, pullers, side mount and front mount radiators, and all sorts of different configurations.
I should have absolutely connected a real temp gauge for not running a fan, I do agree. But like I said the cooling game is really nothing new to me.
What I did also do was take the a/c fan, and flip it around in the mounting and reverse the polarity, and mounted it as a pusher, (common mod on rc51's) and I now have my slim puller style like factory, funny thing is from when I was running no fan, my temp gauge is the exact same, and I can tell you why,
Go outside and get a LED or normal light bulb connect the wires to your fan switch, run the light on your windshield so you can see when the signal gets power, that's when your fan turns on. My fan was never signaled to turn on outside of being stuck in traffic at which point I just shut her off, Just like I do on my rc51 and my 1000rr in the humid summer times.
I also appreciate the info on the MBC, that was the kind of educated response I was hoping for, and it technically makes sense to me,
even though I have read things that disagree with that, the ball and spring in a MBC technically I would imagine work just like the wg valve does, moving further and further as the set tension is reached, its not a simple ON/OFF like a 3 port EVC would be that also senses boost pressure.
IT would make sense if you had the MBC tuned to say 7 psi, the the ball and spring would compress more and more as you get closer as its a spring and has progressive tension just like any other spring.
Makes perfect sense.
Thanks guys.
Also, Im just going to get my DP cut and rewelded.
12-17-2015, 12:14 PM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
12-17-2015, 01:44 PM
#18
Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
Nah.. As a practical matter and as a mathematical one, 220whp on 5psi on a 50 trim? On b20b ..unless the dyno is reading horribly high.. That is.. Highly, highly, highly, improbable.. And I use those turbo all the time easily more than that.
12-17-2015, 01:59 PM
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
There is plenty of people making "decent" power on 5psi, on a stock b20, to say 220whp isn't practical seems foolish,
Yes some dynos do read high and some read low.
But a simple google search proves A) you're wrong, and B) I did overestimate alittle.
But in any event assuming only running 5 psi is hardly an upgrade from stock is ignorant.
I don't have a race car, I have an integra that had a stock b20 and wasn't quick, now for my driving, I really enjoy it.
the end.
12-17-2015, 05:55 PM
#20
Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
https://honda-tech.com/forced-induct...-697435/page6/
There is plenty of people making "decent" power on 5psi, on a stock b20, to say 220whp isn't practical seems foolish,
Yes some dynos do read high and some read low.
But a simple google search proves A) you're wrong, and B) I did overestimate alittle.
But in any event assuming only running 5 psi is hardly an upgrade from stock is ignorant.
I don't have a race car, I have an integra that had a stock b20 and wasn't quick, now for my driving, I really enjoy it.
the end.
There is plenty of people making "decent" power on 5psi, on a stock b20, to say 220whp isn't practical seems foolish,
Yes some dynos do read high and some read low.
But a simple google search proves A) you're wrong, and B) I did overestimate alittle.
But in any event assuming only running 5 psi is hardly an upgrade from stock is ignorant.
I don't have a race car, I have an integra that had a stock b20 and wasn't quick, now for my driving, I really enjoy it.
the end.
Show me.. Give me link .. Conditions of your validity
A) Must show 220whp or greater
B) ON a 50 Trim Garrett or Turbonetics cast wheel turbocharger part number 466159-5003 (53mm inducer, 75mm exducer with 65mm exhaust wheel in T3 Turbine housing).
C) Must be AT NO MORE THAN 5psi of maximum boost pressure, (No spray, twin charging, compound charging, or supercharging)
D) ON a B20B Block/head. (No VTEC, no camshaft) STOCK.
I will then gladly and publicly recant my statement giving full rights to say that I'm wrong. Don't worry, I'll wait...
I'm not trying to give you ****. I just want you to understand the limits of what you're projecting is all.
12-17-2015, 09:44 PM
#21
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Re: new b20b turbo, questions on exhaust and boost control.
I guess I should have clarified a little...
A quality MBC with the right spring rate and ball weight will improve spool times over just running spring pressure since the bleed hole prevents the gate from opening as far as spring pressure alone and slightly delays valve opening
HOWEVER
A properly setup EBC that keeps the wastegate completely shut until the last second target pressure is made will always spool faster. If that isn't the case then the controller isn't setup properly.
A quality MBC with the right spring rate and ball weight will improve spool times over just running spring pressure since the bleed hole prevents the gate from opening as far as spring pressure alone and slightly delays valve opening
HOWEVER
A properly setup EBC that keeps the wastegate completely shut until the last second target pressure is made will always spool faster. If that isn't the case then the controller isn't setup properly.
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