sorry i havent updated here recently, i cant upload any pics right now because my internet is being super ******* gay. i got the vibrant tensioner in, along with some new brian crower cam gears last week. i must say the gears are alot more appealing to me than the old silver aem ones. i will post pics in a few days once we switch from one shitty internet provider to probably another equally as shitty provider.

here is where i stand now, and i am beyond tired of messing with this dart block... patience is thin, and craigslist or the classifieds might have a nice engine for cheap if i cant figure this out.

before i go any further, I HAVE SEARCHED AND FOUND NOTHING, ANY THREADS THAT I FOUND WITH WHAT I THOUGHT MAY BE USEFUL INFO DID NOT YIELD RESULTS, AND I THINK IT MAY BE DUE TO THE FACT NOT MANY PEOPLE USE THESE BLOCKS BUT MAYBE SOMEONE CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS PROBLEM.

first off ill start by saying the dart block recommends using a 22t gsr water pump, with a gates t-294 timing belt on the tall deck block. with some research this turns out to be a ford focus timing belt. this is what it states to use in the instructions and data sheets that came with the block.

with all my research i have found that all b series cam gears are the same pertaining to teeth count, the only difference is in vtec heads they sit higher than a non vtec.

i have also searched for differences in the timing gear itself, and from that i have gathered they are all the exact same, as well as the tensioner assembly.

here is my problem, and if you have nothing useful to post dont post, i consider myself mechanically inclined and not a complete dumbass when it comes to things like this but maybe, hopefully im overlooking something small.

when trying to time the motor, i line up tdc on the crank with the arrow on the oil pump and verify with a long extension in the #1 hole. i then installed the cams at tdc and used a 4mm allen wrench to hold the exhaust cam in place, and a punch in the intake to do the same. i then followed the rest of the pdf manual i have and wrapped the belt around the crank, tensioner, water pump, exhaust cam, and finally the intake cam.

here is where **** gets screwy and is driving me nuts. if im extremely careful not to pull to hard when wrapping the intake cam everything will line up perfect. i then rotate the motor over 3 teeth, pop the tensioner and begin to rotate and check every 90* of the cams. at 180* everything still lines up, but once the motor makes a full cycle (2 rotations of the crank) back to tdc the cams line up but the crank is a tooth past tdc.

i thought ok ill try setting the crank back a tooth before tdc. this time doing the same steps as before, when the motor is rotated around a full cycle, the timing gear does not advance a tooth like i thought it would, instead it is still a tooth before tdc.

i have tried a few of my friends suggestions such as only installing half of the belt on and when its around everything push it on the rest of the way, and it still does the 1 tooth forward thing, i have also tried doing the intake cam before the exhaust, i have also tried doing the tensioner last, not rotating it 3 teeth, leaving the tensioner bolt loose and rotating the motor so the belt tensions more as soon as slack comes over the tensioner, i have even watched a youtube video where a guy does the timing belt with one hand and he said his secret was to try to leave the timing gear about 5* before tdc so when u pull up on the belt to go over the intake cam it lines it up and that didnt work either. i have literally probably taken the timing belt on and off 500 times now. on friday i repeated the process over and over from 230 till 8 at night trying various different ways including how the manual says to. the closest i have gotten it was the crank lined up and the intake gear lined up but the exhaust cam was off by a tooth.

here are a few more things i do know:

decking the block and milling the head can throw things off. i do not know how much portflow took off the head as they did not send any info back with the head. all i know is they checked for warpage and decked it to ensure it was flat. i also do not know how much was taken off the block. i do know it was milled some and the pistons were left .015 in the hole.

could all of this just be from it being a dart block with a non vtec head since it calls for a vtec water pump and belt? dart says the block can be used with an ls head, but im lost. i cannot get this thing timed for the life of me. ive had numerous friends help, and try to hold the intake cam while i did it and everything and still nothing. ive went as far as getting a regular oil pump and seeing if the mark on the toga oil pump wasnt in the right spot or something.

PLEASE HELP ALL THATS LEFT IS TIMING THE MOTOR AND INSTALLING THE CRANK DAMPENER AND PUTTING IT IN THE CAR AND THIS IS PISSING ME OFF!!!!!

 

Its probably the height difference between heads, have you tried calling dart directly?

And if you don't want the block I've got a nice b16 head for it

Althouh on a side note, I've noticed most motors, no matter whether chain or belt, won't line back up after you spn the motor over

 

not yet on this issue, but they didnt sound like they knew wtf they were talking about when i called and asked about the headgasket issue with the dowel pins. you would think the block being made to accept non vtec and vtec heads their would be a gasket made for the ls head with the dowel pins in the rear like they are suppose to be.

that has been my thought of the height difference. i have rotated the motor over quite a few times to make sure that was as far as the crank became advanced and it stays in the same position (meaning it doesnt advnce itself a tooth every 2 turns) it just advances the one tooth and thats where it stays let me see if i can load these pics up now that my internet is working semi-ok and show you what its looking like.

 

vibrant tensioner installed



the new cam gears



here the cams are lined up perfectly



timing gear near perfect, and then the magic...



voila somehow after rotating the engine back to tdc the cams are the same, but the crank ends up 1/2 tooth off (sorry for saying a full tooth, it is literally half a tooth off)


these next two pics are after i rotated the engine and was as close as i could get the engine to tdc after rotating the engine back around. i dont know what i done, it was during the experimentation of moving one gear one way and another a certain amount the same way etc.



crank dead on after rotating it back around, but now here it comes...



cam gears are off half a tooth????

 

I dont understand why use the ford timing belt? The GSR timing belt is 10 inches in length the ford belt is 10.1 inches according to gates, but the number of teeth is very different, 247 vs 294 on the ford belt, that's your problem right there.

 

So moral of the story is, don't use a dart block. lol

 

i can take a pic of the instructions if you would like. i would think if they say to use a gates t-294 belt or a cloyes B-294 then you would use either or. it doesnt say to use a gsr belt since the deck height is different.

 

I know the deck height is different...but the belt sizes are the same, its the number of teeth that are different.

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Gates+T-294+tim...ivalent%3F&l=1

that wasnt so hard was it? first link says it for ya so i saved myself the hassle of taking the pic for you.

 

how is it that they are only .1 difference in length but it has almost 50 teeth less. are the teeth spaced further apart or something?

your basically saying you think dart is wrong with the gates belt and i should try a gsr vtec belt? i mean hell ive thrown enough money into this thing, another $90 belt isnt going to break me worth a try i guess, and if it isnt the right one, ill just take it back.

 

nope, you are absolutely right, give dart a call tomorrow and see if their sales people can get to the bottom of it, good luck with the focus build.

 

I was wrong about the teeth too, i thought it directly translated over via part number but it doesnt.

Gates T294 is 129 teeth and Gates T247 is 126, again...theres your problem.

 

actually im not even sure why the hell the parts website i used had those specs listed, cus gates is giving completely different specs in their catalog... 1" x 48 3/8" vs 1 1/32" x 47 1/4"

 

i would like to hear your reasoning as to why you think a gsr belt goes on it when they say to use this belt?

here are facts i know from researching this bullshit.

when doing a ls/vtec you use a gsr water pump with a gsr belt, or in simpler terms, a vtec belt with vtec water pump

the deck height of the gsr and b18b stock blocks are the same and the different belts come from the different height in the head, and the water pump being bigger in diameter.

so how could 14mm taller of a block with a gsr water pump need a gsr timing belt?

im not trying to be an *******, i just didnt feel like going into the room and waking my girl up to dig for the papers and show you that thats what it said to use. i mean **** like i said ill be glad to buy a gsr timing belt and if it works ill personally call dart and tell them the situation and that you solved the problem, cause im prob the only one who has tried doing a non vtec dart tall deck combo.

 

If im not mistaken, b18b and b18c blocks arent the same deck height, they are 211.84 and 212.39 are they not? Plus look at your picture without the power steering side tensioner, you must have over an inch of slack in the top half of that belt...why couldnt you run a stock GSR belt and not run into this problem? You keep rolling what...a degree on the crank and a half a degree on the cams? If that isnt a tooth problem with the belt I dont know what is. It's the only thing that could cause it to come out of alignment as it spins if the belt is tight.

 

im going to go to the parts store tomorrow and buy a gsr belt if i get off in time to see. im sure they will let me return the belt if it doesnt work.

 

Is it staying the same amount out each rotation or does it get more and more teeth out each rotation?

 

when timed with everything lined up perfect the cams end up back perfect, but the crank is out half a tooth which how many degrees that is im unsure between 5* and 10* but its irrelevant really we all can plainly see something isnt right.

and you are correct without the vibrant tensioner and with the stock tensioner fully tensioned there is quite a bit of flex in the front side.

 

id pay good money to see you choke someone out at dart if that wound up being your problem lol

 

once it goes to tdc and is at its half tooth out **** thats where it stays, if i keep rotating the engine by hand, it doesnt gain any more or lose anymore. i tried rotating it over 7 or 8 consecutive times to make sure it didnt gain a tooth every full cycle, it just stays at the half a tooth off.

 

TRUST ME, if you end up being right on the gsr timing belt, someones getting a mouthfull down there for the simple lack of info and poor or should i say **** poor quality i have received from them. the bolt holes not being machined deep enough is dumb enough, and the headgasket issue was really stupid on there part since they should know dowel pins are reverse from ls to vtec heads, and now this?

 

ok couldnt we figure this out with simple math? the crank has 17 teeth and each gear has 34. crank rotates 2 full turns which equals 34 to the cams one full turn of 34 teeth. now does anyone know how to calculate all of that onto the belt and how many teeth it would need lol.

 

I had a similar problem when i used a thicker headgasket. I just put pins in the cams to keep them at TDC (usually there are pin holes in the cam holders that you can lock the cams in place) then loosened off the cam pulley bolt and rotated the crank a small amount to make everything all line up again.

Its not going to find out why you have your issue but it will line everything back up.

 

need the water pump too

 

water pump im using is 22 teeth. im thinking trying to figure up the math wont work due to all of the teeth not in contact with gears, and wouldnt you need to know the exact spacing of the teeth and width of them as well as belt dimensions? i was good in math but not good with word problems lol.