I finally finished up all the misc ends to get my car running today. I went to start the engine, first try turned over and ran. It was rough and about 20 seconds later a pool of anti-freeze and oil was dumping onto the floor. I immediately turned off the car and inspected for any obvious leaks or mistakes I could have made; nothing. I pulled the spark plugs and number 1 and number 2 cylinder were submerged in coolant and oil. I checked the oil dip stick and it looked like this:



Its a bit hard to see but there is coolant and oil all over the dip stick, meaning the oil pan is completely filled with a nice mixture.

I pulled the head and this is what I found:





My initial thought was that the headgasket was blown, but the engine was brand new rebuilt with zero miles on it. I triple checked that the headgasket was installed correctly (I did all the final assembly work on the block/head), which leads me to the block. I purchased the block from Viren about 8 months ago. Due to school and other commitments the engine was not run until today. Here are some quick facts on the block:

GE sleeved
9:1 Wiseco Rollerwave Pistons
Eagle Rods
OEM bearings

The block assembly was done by Viren, he mentioned that it was a spare block from his race car. I noticed that the block had an unordinary amount of orange epoxy at the bottom of the sleeves. Having a previous GE block that didnt have this I questioned the epoxy, but decided that since it was from GE it would be fine. Today while I was filling the radiator with coolant, I noticed that it was taking alot more coolant than normal to get the radiator full. I used a full bottle of pure anti-freeze mixed 50/50 with water to get the radiator full. This was far more coolant than I have ever used before, both my father and I questioned this but the coolant wasn't pouring/seaping from anywhere on the block so we proceeded. I checked the oil level before we turned the key to start the engine, it was up to its normal level. My best educated guess at this point is that the epoxy at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves left loose and the coolant mixed with the oil. The sleeves didnt appear to have sunk, the head also appears to be completely true. I need some opinions on what has happened here. I have assembled numerous engines with zero problems, there is something majorly wrong.

 

damn that sucks

 

Damn Jeff that sucks man. All I can think of is either the sleeves are fucked up or maybe the head bolts weren't torqued down enough. Good luck man.

 

The head studs were torqued down per spec from GE:

22 ft-lbs, then 55 ft-lbs, then 82 ft-lbs. Let sit for a few hours then retorque the studs again to 82 ft-lbs. The studs were super hard to break free so I know those were fine. The head was really hard to get separated from the block due to the copper spray. It has to be either the sleeves or the epoxy at the bottom of the sleeves...

 

jesus...if this happens to me after i bust my *** putting mine in all day im gonna be super pissed

 

Yup, sounds like it leaked at the bottom of the sleeve. I'm just surprised it's that bad that quickly.. It isn't the first GE block I've seen though where the coolant leaks past the sleeves...

-Mike

 

holy ****... I hope its not your sleeves. What kind of headgasket are you using? Bore specs??

 

Man, what a pisser.

Since the head's off, how about pouring some 150 ish degree water into the water jacket surrounding the sleeves? If you've got a leak, the water should end up in the pan.

Sonny

 

i think you already know what the problem was before you finished the build/install------>

the orange "epoxy" at the bottom of the cyl......have you looked at this since the mishap????

 

sounds like u got hosed on the block . see if viren will replace or refund.

 

I would pull the oil pan and check it out.

 

i just thought of something......how would all of that coolant get on top of the cyl's....would the engine pull that much vacum that could "suck" the coolant from "around" the rings???


could the problem be in your head......no pun intended

 

The block is 84.5mm bore. Headgasket is a OEM overbored to 84.5mm by GE.

My thoughts on why this occured is due to the epoxy not holding. The coolant and oil mixed together through a hole somewhere in the sleeve, probably where the epoxy is located. There was so much that the oil pump was pumping not only oil, but coolant as well. Enough pressure was built up from all the fluid in the oil pan that the headgasket let loose to vent the excess built up pressure. The mixture of the coolant and oil was immediate, not when a headgasket blows and the oil and anti-freeze starts to mix. This points me to the fact that when I was pouring more coolant into the engine it was probably already mixed with the oil. I wish it was something as simple as the headgasket wasnt installed correctly, but it was on correctly with the correct torque specs.

I have contacted Viren on this matter, just waiting to hear back from him. I wanted to get other people's opinion's on this before I pull the engine out this week. BTW, the oil pan is completely filled with oil and coolant. There wasnt much, if any coolant left inside the radiator when i took it out this afternoon.

 

If I find that I am able to actually use the block would coolant and the oil being mixed in the oil pan wipe out the new bearings? I was always told once the coolant hits the bearings they are finished since coolant is abrasive to the bearing surface.

 

the lack of lubricity is the problem, if the engine wasnt run long , and the water didnt sit in the pan long enough to start rusting parts you should be okay, probly. ? for y. is this a drag only block? will block filler in bottom of water jacket fix leak?

 

that epoxy was not preventing anything from leaking...i believe it is what squished out from when GE pushed the sleeves in. My block had that same ****, along with every other GE block ive seen. Im not sure why they dont trim that **** off so it doesnt get into the "coolant system"

 

The block is actually for street/strip use. The water has only been there since this afternoon and will be drained first thing tomorrow morning. I am not entirely sure why there was so much epoxy at the bottom of the sleeves, that is something Viren can answer...

I have another all motor GE sleeved block that doesnt have any visable epoxy, which makes me concerned. My previous GE block didnt have it either. The epoxy was visable from only the bottom of the sleeve, not on the top side where the coolant jacket is located.

 

**** man, that sucks ***..... I hope this has nothing to do with the thread that went around about Viren the other week......

 

As far as I am awhere (and on every GEM sleeved block I have seen so far) they do not use orange epoxy or any other hard setting sealant/adhesive on the bottom of the sleeves. Now this may have changed recently and I could not be awhere of, but seeming that this block came from Viren's race car I would put the block in the same time frame as most of the block I have seen (inside and out).
The sealant used is more like the copper RTV you can buy in autostores. I always allowed the sealant fully cure, then remove the pushed-out sealant from around the bottom of the sleeves. I don't want cured sealant entering the oil system if I can help it at all.

Was the orange epoxy a hard cure epoxy? Didi it look like the orange epoxy was added later to the bottom of the sleeves? Perhaps to cure a leaking block?
I would also get in contact with Vince at GEM. He may work over the block under warrenty, it is worth a shot.

As for the washed bearings, the only sure way is to inspect them and see what the surfaces look like. I have seen some OEM Honda and ACL bearings take a beating in this way and come out OK for re-use. But there are exception to everything......


Modified by SLPR at 8:07 PM 7/7/2003

 

Curious....was there any oil contamination in the cooling system? Radiator, surge tank, etc.
And what are you using for a crankcase breather?

I'm guessing the bottom sleeves leaked coolant into the crankcase, Filled the case and entered the breather system....if it is still a closed breather system, then the coolant/oil mix whent right into the intake manifold. Maybe??

Sorry for the mis-fortune

 

aparently there has been quit a stir about Viren this last month (what I noticed on this board)...... also a large portion of the local Texans hate him, but hes treated like a god on h-t... personaly I dont know him, nor do I give a **** about him

 

All the Golden Eagle blocks I have seen which is about 7-8and they all had that sloppy orange epoxy at the bottom of the sleeves, after running the car it got all in the radiator too. Jeff did you use the Bar's Leak per Golden Eagle's warranty requirement? I know of a block that did not use it and iyt leaked coolant between the sleeves and mized with the oil, lost about a whole resorvoir of water every day or two, then drained the oil and coolant and added Bar's Leak and no more loss of coolant and mixing with oil but the sleeves still sunk. InlinePro said their race car had a GE block and it was losing coolant also, oil getting milky, they took the oil pan off and pressurized the radiator and said they could literally see the coolant leaking between the sleeves. They added the Bar's Leak and luckily theynever had the problem again. In my experiences with GE they are the problem and the worst sleeving I have seen anyone use. Sorry don't mean to step on anybodies toes that have GE sleeves but GE I don't mind stepping on their toes!!!!!!!!!! They have cost me way too much time and money! I need a replacement block still!!!!!!! But seriously not to point the blame at GE but it sounds as iff this IS THE PROBLEM TRUELY! If you checked all your install over and no probs it's gottta be the sleeves.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> My best educated guess at this point is that the epoxy at the bottom of the cylinder sleeves left loose and the coolant mixed with the oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I dont see how this is possible if antifreeze filled the cylinders..If it was leaking out the bottom it should only fill the oil pan not the inside of the cylinder chambers right? if the antifreeze was coming from around the head gasket and filling the cylinders it could be forced pass the rings and into the pan but it would also smoke like a bitch with white clouds coming out the exhaust with a horrible smell,was it doing that?



BTW..are you sure that is an OEM honda gasket,it dont look like one to me,at least to the one i just installed on my D.Did you paint it with copper spray?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Enough pressure was built up from all the fluid in the oil pan that the headgasket let loose to vent the excess built up pressure. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not possible,no way a headgasket would let go like that,every other gasket would blow out before it would like the valve cover gasket,oil pan,rear main,etc etc.





Modified by D-Man at 11:31 PM 7/7/2003

 

Maybe the orange foam was blocking the water jacks, and like you said, built up pressure...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jordo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe the orange foam was blocking the water jacks, and like you said, built up pressure...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I heard Vince puts Rainbow colored epoxy in there now! LOL!