which LSD
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From: ogden, Ut, US
which LSD
okay, first off let me just say thanks to all that have helped me with my car over the past three weeks. My turbo is now succesfully installed and waiting on a tune. What are your thoughts and recommendations on LSDs, OBX, Quaife, OEM etc.. I have heard a lot of horror stories about OBX, and im leaning more towards the OEM ITR in my GSR trans. Also what is the best final drive to use in the GSR trans. Thanks in advance. 
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From: Newark, DE
I have used 2 of the ones listed ( ITR & Quaife ) the quaife feels much more stronger when it engages and really yanks you out of the turn. The other thing about the Quaife is the warranty, but they are not cheap. For my next tranny I would like to try the OBX unit and rebuilt it like others do however.
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From: stranger in a strange land
Re: (fmfkid250)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fmfkid250 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Quaife>Spool>Kazz>OBX>IT R>Phantom Slip>stock open> no tranny at all
hows my lineup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
nailed it.
most people are using all stock gsr gears. i mean ratio wise.
i use b16 with a gsr 4th thats what i had.
i have been beating the snot out of my quaife.
hows my lineup?</TD></TR></TABLE>
nailed it.
most people are using all stock gsr gears. i mean ratio wise.
i use b16 with a gsr 4th thats what i had.
i have been beating the snot out of my quaife.
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Re: (boostedcivicsir)
Mista Bone has installed quite a few OBX's in D-series tranny's. Something around 17 or 18 of them, and he has yet to have a problem from one of them. When properly installed, a new OBX is going to treat you well.
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Re: (boostedcivicsir)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedcivicsir »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
nailed it.
most people are using all stock gsr gears. i mean ratio wise.
i use b16 with a gsr 4th thats what i had.
i have been beating the snot out of my quaife.</TD></TR></TABLE>
my quaife is real loose, only a matter of time before it goes boom, its lasted 3 motors and 2 trannys though...lol
nailed it.
most people are using all stock gsr gears. i mean ratio wise.
i use b16 with a gsr 4th thats what i had.
i have been beating the snot out of my quaife.</TD></TR></TABLE>
my quaife is real loose, only a matter of time before it goes boom, its lasted 3 motors and 2 trannys though...lol
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From: ogden, Ut, US
Re: (BlueSi2k)
when you say to rebuild the obx do you mean prior to the first install. The ITR lsd will work with my gsr trans. right? Also how many of you did the work yourself i have done clutches but never torn into a trans. Is it extremely difficult?
Re: (civintegra)
When it comes to LSDs you have to look at what the purpose of the car is for. Though they perform a similar function, they do so in different manners with different characteristics.
Kaaz/ATS/Cusco and the like are Considered to be TORQUE-SENSITIVE LSDs. These are mainly used as an aftermarket type and are best used in road/circuit racing situations.
The clutch type LSD responds to driveshaft torque. The more driveshaft input torque present, the harder the clutches are pressed together, and thus the more closely the drive wheels are coupled to each other. This is mainly true when using the transmission to slow down into a chicane or other road racing scenario.
With little or no input torque, (trailing throttle / gearbox in neutral / main clutch depressed) the drive wheels are still coupled somewhat as the clutches are always in contact to some degree, producing friction. The amount of preload (hence static coupling) on the clutches is determined by the general condition (wear) of the clutches and by how tightly they are shimmed.
Generally speaking, there are three input torque states - load, no load, & over run. Under load, as previously stated, the coupling is proportional to the input torque. With no load, the coupling is reduced to the static coupling. The behaviour on over run (particularly sudden throttle release) determines whether the LSD is 1 way, 1.5 way, or 2 way.
If there is no additional coupling on over run, the LSD is 1 way. This is a safer clutch-type LSD, as soon as the driver lifts the throttle, the LSD unlocks and behaves somewhat like a conventional open differential. This is also the best for FWD cars, as it allows the car to turn in on throttle release, instead of plowing forward.
If the LSD increases coupling in the same way regardless of whether the input torque is forwards or reverse, it is a 2 way differential. Some drifters prefer this type as the LSD behaves the same regardless of their erratic throttle input, and lets them keep the wheels spinning all the way through a corner. An inexperienced driver can easily spin the car when using a 2 way LSD if they lift the throttle suddenly, expecting the car to settle like a conventional open differential. This is why many S13 and rear-wheel drive cars use Cusco or Kaaz as their differential.
If the LSD behaves somewhere in between these two extremes, it is a 1.5 way differential, which is a compromise between sportiness and safety. Generally, a 1.5 way creates a stronger lock under acceleration than deceleration. This is where road-racing hondas like these the most, but be careful, These types of LSDs are a little noisy, a bit clunky under light load as in a slow turn on the street, but are flawless in higher speed situations. They also require a specific Grade Level 5 oil. You cannot use Syncromesh or motor oil in order to lubricate the plates. Also, contrary to popular belief, Clutch LSD DO NOT need to have its fluid changed every 3000 miles.
When it comes to SERVICING a Clutch-type LSD, there is a Break-in period that is needed. in Kaaz, ATS world, its a series of figure "8"s so that the fluid can travel freely to all areas of the clutch packs and work properly. Typically about 40 minutes right after installation is where it needs to be performed. Manufacturers give detailed instructions on how to break the differential in. If you don't follow the instructions, the LSD may be permanently damaged, in that it may engage and disengage erratically due to irregularities on and damage to the clutch surfaces
Gear-Torqued sensitive LSDs (Quaife, and Torsen LSDs) are mechanical which use worm gears to sort of "sense" torque on one shaft. These are best used for the "street/strip" crowd of FWD cars, that plan on doing drag racing, but still want to drive home, and keep torque steer to a minimum. Geared LSDs are less prone to wear than the clutch type, but both output shafts have to be loaded to keep the proper torque distribution characteristics. Once an output shaft becomes free (e.g. one driven wheel lifts off the ground; or a summer tire comes over ice while another is on dry tarmac when the car goes uphill), no torque is transmitted to the second shaft and the torque-sensitive differential behaves like an open differential. This is why Type R LSDs are really only reactive unlike the Clutch-type. It will act as an open differential until the wheels are actually turned so that it can "sense" a loss of traction. (This is why I get a kick out of people when they use a Type R LSD transmission on a turbo'd car, and think it will cover all the bases of how much power they want to run.
). The cool part about these LSDs, like Quaife or (god-forbid) OBX LSDs don't require much maintanence. They are more of "set-it-and-forget-it" type of mechanism that can use Syncromesh and be changed just like any other transmission fluid. Geard Torque Sensitive LSDs also are good on RWD to make oversteer easier to manage ( like in a drift car), but not as good as a Clutch type. They can also act as a center differential in an AWD application.
Viscous LSDs are speed sensitive, and uses a dilatant fluid which thickens when subject to shear. Silicone-based oils are often used. Viscous LSDs are less efficient than mechanical types, that is, they "lose" some power. They do not stand up well to abuse, particularly any sustained load which overheats the silicone results in sudden permanent loss of the LSD effect. Many Subarus have these but since the older transmissions (non-STI) couldn't take much abuse to begine with, this hasn't appeared to be a serious problem YET. Most people will upgrade LSD at that point, even in an AWD application that they already own.
Spools are a world all on their own. A spool really only has a pinion & ring gear. the centre is solid and the axle is one big piece. A mini-spool is similar, replacing the usual differential centre with a solid piece, retaining the factory axles. Technically speaking, a spool is not a differential at all, but is used to achieve a similar effect to an LSD on some street & race cars. A lot of the older school American drag cars with larger rear ends use these, but that is starting to become obsolete with new products available.
I personally have Cusco for both my N/A and Turbo applications. The turbo one is 1.5way, while my N/A car uses a 1 way. A lot of the clunkiness has gone away several thousand miles ago, but I also don't drag race either of these cars, and the LSD luckily prevents that kind of abuse. If you want the best of 2 worlds (street/strip turbo) without a lot of maintanence, and a good warranty, the Quaife is usually the better choice.
Hopefully this helps in your decision-making...
Modified by TheShodan at 3:20 PM 8/15/2007
Kaaz/ATS/Cusco and the like are Considered to be TORQUE-SENSITIVE LSDs. These are mainly used as an aftermarket type and are best used in road/circuit racing situations.
The clutch type LSD responds to driveshaft torque. The more driveshaft input torque present, the harder the clutches are pressed together, and thus the more closely the drive wheels are coupled to each other. This is mainly true when using the transmission to slow down into a chicane or other road racing scenario.
With little or no input torque, (trailing throttle / gearbox in neutral / main clutch depressed) the drive wheels are still coupled somewhat as the clutches are always in contact to some degree, producing friction. The amount of preload (hence static coupling) on the clutches is determined by the general condition (wear) of the clutches and by how tightly they are shimmed.
Generally speaking, there are three input torque states - load, no load, & over run. Under load, as previously stated, the coupling is proportional to the input torque. With no load, the coupling is reduced to the static coupling. The behaviour on over run (particularly sudden throttle release) determines whether the LSD is 1 way, 1.5 way, or 2 way.
If there is no additional coupling on over run, the LSD is 1 way. This is a safer clutch-type LSD, as soon as the driver lifts the throttle, the LSD unlocks and behaves somewhat like a conventional open differential. This is also the best for FWD cars, as it allows the car to turn in on throttle release, instead of plowing forward.
If the LSD increases coupling in the same way regardless of whether the input torque is forwards or reverse, it is a 2 way differential. Some drifters prefer this type as the LSD behaves the same regardless of their erratic throttle input, and lets them keep the wheels spinning all the way through a corner. An inexperienced driver can easily spin the car when using a 2 way LSD if they lift the throttle suddenly, expecting the car to settle like a conventional open differential. This is why many S13 and rear-wheel drive cars use Cusco or Kaaz as their differential.
If the LSD behaves somewhere in between these two extremes, it is a 1.5 way differential, which is a compromise between sportiness and safety. Generally, a 1.5 way creates a stronger lock under acceleration than deceleration. This is where road-racing hondas like these the most, but be careful, These types of LSDs are a little noisy, a bit clunky under light load as in a slow turn on the street, but are flawless in higher speed situations. They also require a specific Grade Level 5 oil. You cannot use Syncromesh or motor oil in order to lubricate the plates. Also, contrary to popular belief, Clutch LSD DO NOT need to have its fluid changed every 3000 miles.
When it comes to SERVICING a Clutch-type LSD, there is a Break-in period that is needed. in Kaaz, ATS world, its a series of figure "8"s so that the fluid can travel freely to all areas of the clutch packs and work properly. Typically about 40 minutes right after installation is where it needs to be performed. Manufacturers give detailed instructions on how to break the differential in. If you don't follow the instructions, the LSD may be permanently damaged, in that it may engage and disengage erratically due to irregularities on and damage to the clutch surfaces
Gear-Torqued sensitive LSDs (Quaife, and Torsen LSDs) are mechanical which use worm gears to sort of "sense" torque on one shaft. These are best used for the "street/strip" crowd of FWD cars, that plan on doing drag racing, but still want to drive home, and keep torque steer to a minimum. Geared LSDs are less prone to wear than the clutch type, but both output shafts have to be loaded to keep the proper torque distribution characteristics. Once an output shaft becomes free (e.g. one driven wheel lifts off the ground; or a summer tire comes over ice while another is on dry tarmac when the car goes uphill), no torque is transmitted to the second shaft and the torque-sensitive differential behaves like an open differential. This is why Type R LSDs are really only reactive unlike the Clutch-type. It will act as an open differential until the wheels are actually turned so that it can "sense" a loss of traction. (This is why I get a kick out of people when they use a Type R LSD transmission on a turbo'd car, and think it will cover all the bases of how much power they want to run.
). The cool part about these LSDs, like Quaife or (god-forbid) OBX LSDs don't require much maintanence. They are more of "set-it-and-forget-it" type of mechanism that can use Syncromesh and be changed just like any other transmission fluid. Geard Torque Sensitive LSDs also are good on RWD to make oversteer easier to manage ( like in a drift car), but not as good as a Clutch type. They can also act as a center differential in an AWD application.Viscous LSDs are speed sensitive, and uses a dilatant fluid which thickens when subject to shear. Silicone-based oils are often used. Viscous LSDs are less efficient than mechanical types, that is, they "lose" some power. They do not stand up well to abuse, particularly any sustained load which overheats the silicone results in sudden permanent loss of the LSD effect. Many Subarus have these but since the older transmissions (non-STI) couldn't take much abuse to begine with, this hasn't appeared to be a serious problem YET. Most people will upgrade LSD at that point, even in an AWD application that they already own.
Spools are a world all on their own. A spool really only has a pinion & ring gear. the centre is solid and the axle is one big piece. A mini-spool is similar, replacing the usual differential centre with a solid piece, retaining the factory axles. Technically speaking, a spool is not a differential at all, but is used to achieve a similar effect to an LSD on some street & race cars. A lot of the older school American drag cars with larger rear ends use these, but that is starting to become obsolete with new products available.
I personally have Cusco for both my N/A and Turbo applications. The turbo one is 1.5way, while my N/A car uses a 1 way. A lot of the clunkiness has gone away several thousand miles ago, but I also don't drag race either of these cars, and the LSD luckily prevents that kind of abuse. If you want the best of 2 worlds (street/strip turbo) without a lot of maintanence, and a good warranty, the Quaife is usually the better choice.
Hopefully this helps in your decision-making...
Modified by TheShodan at 3:20 PM 8/15/2007
Re: which LSD (civintegra)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civintegra »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Also what is the best final drive to use in the GSR trans. Thanks in advance. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Final Drives really depend upon what is being used, and where you want to continue your powerband. All USDM B-series VTEC final drives are 4.4. Some use 4.785 (JDM ITR) and other companies such as ATS have final drives from 4.6 - 5.0. You need to determine what the car is used for first before making THAT decision. Most turbo GS-R users don't need anything closer than their stock final drive.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Final Drives really depend upon what is being used, and where you want to continue your powerband. All USDM B-series VTEC final drives are 4.4. Some use 4.785 (JDM ITR) and other companies such as ATS have final drives from 4.6 - 5.0. You need to determine what the car is used for first before making THAT decision. Most turbo GS-R users don't need anything closer than their stock final drive.
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Re: (civintegra)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civintegra »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when you say to rebuild the obx do you mean prior to the first install. The ITR lsd will work with my gsr trans. right? Also how many of you did the work yourself i have done clutches but never torn into a trans. Is it extremely difficult? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, theres a big how to thread on here. Reason being because the people that assemble them dont know **** (or dont care) and alot of them have stripped bolts or missing/misplaced washers. Its not a big deal just take it apart, check it out and pick up new/bolts washers if needed.
Here's the thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1752849
Yes, theres a big how to thread on here. Reason being because the people that assemble them dont know **** (or dont care) and alot of them have stripped bolts or missing/misplaced washers. Its not a big deal just take it apart, check it out and pick up new/bolts washers if needed.
Here's the thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1752849
Re: (BlueSi2k)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueSi2k »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes, theres a big how to thread on here. Reason being because the people that assemble them dont know **** (or dont care) and alot of them have stripped bolts or missing/misplaced washers. Its not a big deal just take it apart, check it out and pick up new/bolts washers if needed.
Here's the thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1752849</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but you may need to change needle bearings or other OEM parts when changing final drives. Search for instructions on your SPECIFIC choice. Some kits come with these NEEDED OEM parts..
Yes, theres a big how to thread on here. Reason being because the people that assemble them dont know **** (or dont care) and alot of them have stripped bolts or missing/misplaced washers. Its not a big deal just take it apart, check it out and pick up new/bolts washers if needed.
Here's the thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1752849</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but you may need to change needle bearings or other OEM parts when changing final drives. Search for instructions on your SPECIFIC choice. Some kits come with these NEEDED OEM parts..
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 85
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From: ogden, Ut, US
wow thats a lot of info shodan thanks, its a lot to take into consideration. I appreciate the help, I have a few months before all this will be done and this gives me plenty of info to get started. While I have it all apart I am going to have the transmission rebuilt, and install stage 3 clutch. Anyways thanks tons. Honestly im not sure if i want it for drag/ street or track /street or a little of all three.
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From: Greenville, SC, UNITED STATES
i have a quaife in my GSR and it just took a **** on me. was installed by the owner before and never drove the car. i installed the tranny on my stock LS and after a few months of beating on the car the diff just shitted. anyone know their warrenty policy on 2nd owners?
Re: (bigbadboy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bigbadboy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone know their warrenty policy on 2nd owners?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Mine came with a card for registration. Check with the guy you bought it from to see if he sent it in, although I don't know how picky they are.
Mine came with a card for registration. Check with the guy you bought it from to see if he sent it in, although I don't know how picky they are.
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