Civichatch2k

Ok, I have just recently found out about the compression of this setup. I am looking to run about 12-14 lbs of boost at max, but not daily. I would like to know that since I am building this on budget, how the reliability of this setup will differ from after market pistons. I am obviously going to upgrade rod bolts, main studs, and head studs to compensate for the added power.

Basically I would like to know what the popular opinion on this setup concerning reliability of it. Thanks.

Any info you need just ask I will supply. Oh yeah, rods will be B16 as well.

Thanks!

turboEGhatch

The problem with the stock pistons is the fact that the stock ringlands suck, not the compression ratio. You arn't going to gain any reliability by going to the LS pistons, so you might as well not waste your money and save for some aftermarket pistons and rods.

Civichatch2k

Ok. So your saying that the ringlands suck. Then why do most turbo kits just 'bolt up' to the factory motors with no suggesstion of upgrading the motors internals? I am not trying to be rude, I am just not understanding.

Is the reason that companies like Greddy make a kit for the stock honda based on the amount of boost they run, or is it just a catch 22 to make the industry more money in the end?

Are their any rings that would help to prevent this problem?

turboEGhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civichatch2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok. So your saying that the ringlands suck. Then why do most turbo kits just 'bolt up' to the factory motors with no suggesstion of upgrading the motors internals? I am not trying to be rude, I am just not understanding.

Is the reason that companies like Greddy make a kit for the stock honda based on the amount of boost they run, or is it just a catch 22 to make the industry more money in the end?

Are their any rings that would help to prevent this problem?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The ringlands are a physical portion of the piston, so you can't just change them out. Ringlands are the metal spaces between the rings.

Most turbo kits are sold under the impression that you arn't going to crank the boost up. An FMU is fine on an 8 psi drag kit, because they assume you arn't going to crank that up to 15 pounds and think it'll work. The stock Honda pistons will be fine at 8 psi , but at 14-15 you're on thin ice. Just a slight bit of detonation and you can tear up ringlands very easily.

Civichatch2k

Ok, thanks. So like I thought the kits are sold based on the amount of boost they expect you to run.

Thanks, that explains things! Thanks for the help.

So what pistons would you suggest? I have been looking at CP what do you guys think?

Civichatch2k

Another thing. Will the stock rods hold up to the higher boost, or would it be better to source out some scat or eagle rods?

kasso

you cant put forged pistons on stock rods

turboEGhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Civichatch2k &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, thanks. So like I thought the kits are sold based on the amount of boost they expect you to run.

Thanks, that explains things! Thanks for the help.

So what pistons would you suggest? I have been looking at CP what do you guys think?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Honestly you can't go wrong with any of the big manufacturers. JE, CP, Arias, and Wiseco all make great pistons. Honestly though, I've never had a friend build a car and not want more power later on. I'd just wait another couple weeks and put some Eagle rods in the motor when you're rebuilding it, it will work out cheaper in the long run rather than tearing the motor down twice.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you cant put forged pistons on stock rods</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1356467

From what I've heard you need to get the small end of the rod machined to fit the floating pin on most forged pistons, but that's it.

JDM_Risa

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you cant put forged pistons on stock rods</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah you can...its been done by many jobs its all in machining...not much work...a good set of eagle rods run for $350 piston about another $450...basically for about 800 and a new set of bearings ACL about 100 ringland and spun bearings or rod failure will be the least of your worries...

Redzone performance in cali...DNr in hayward both done stock rods on aftermarket piston

JE or CP are great piston both i have used personal experience

Civichatch2k

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kasso &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you cant put forged pistons on stock rods</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know for a fact that this is not true, but thanks for your input.

As far as when I am rebuilding this, I have two B16 blocks sitting and a B16 N/A running currently in my car. I want to go boost hince why I am posting this. But I also would like to do this on a budget since I have two blocks waiting to be built.

So let me recap as my understanding will allow:

1. Stock pistons and ringlands are good for about 8psi. Anything more then that is pushing it.
2. Better off to just get after market pistons for the better ringlands and the fact that they are forged.
3. Stock rods will work, but the possibility of wanting more power in the end is hindered by not using after market rods.

So, lets just say hypothetically, that I run stock rods with aftermarket pistons like CP or JE whatever you want to say. What would be the boost levels that would be acceptable for this setup.
I am looking to run at max 11-12that is with an e-cut like cheezefrog. while the e-cut is closed i dont really care what the boost is as long as the motor is running and reliable because it is my daily driver. I know that with the E-cut closed I will never reach full boost but that is ok, that is when I will be driving under normal conditions, with it open I would like to reach somewhere close to this number.

Am I going to be hindered by my rods, or while stock rods hold up to that?

Thanks for all the info guys! Really appreciated!

turboEGhatch

I think the rods in our B-series motors are pretty good, and what usually kills them is high RPM's, since loads starts to rise exponentially as RPM's go up. If you keep it to, say, 8500 RPM's or below I would personally feel comfortable with 350, maybe 400 WHP on the stock rods with forged pistons and a good tuneup on good gas.

Civichatch2k

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboEGhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem with the stock pistons is the fact that the stock ringlands suck, not the compression ratio. You arn't going to gain any reliability by going to the LS pistons, so you might as well not waste your money and save for some aftermarket pistons and rods.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, this is great information. What is the difference in my situation and the ones in this post?

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1323059

I have revised the amount of boost I am looking at running to 10-11 psi with e-cut. This seems to be about the amount that quite a few people in this post are running on stock ls bottom end. If the ringlands are so weak compared to the aftermarket replacement then how are they pulling it off?

This is just a question for me since I am new to the whole 'darkside'. Just let me know please.

Also, thanks for all the responses and the helpful information!

turboEGhatch

An ultra-conservative tune, and perhaps not getting on it that much. I had an LS block tuned at 14 psi with basically no timing and I only used a mix of 110 and pump gas and after a whole summer of drag and road racing they gave up the ghost. You can do it, but reliability becomes a question, and if you're rebuilding the motor the cost really isn't that great for all that extra safety.

Civichatch2k

Well I will be running on 91 octane and will be boosting no more then 10psi. All this info is great.

Thanks! This will not be a motor that is dogged on all the time. It is a daily driver that will be hondata tuned. When it is pushed it obviously needs to perform.

For a daily driver like this would the LS pistons still not be the best way to go. From what you guys are saying reguardless of the driving it would be better to run aftermarket pistons instead of LS pistons. Right?

master honda tech

Right. Stcok honda pistons are the weakes component under stress in the whole engine. If you boost to much you'll be blowing holes in your pistons like its no bodys business. I'd def just suck it up and buy a pair of forged pistons with molly rings. And as far as rods go, stock rods arnt bad but none of the components in these engines were build to handle the pressures of forced induction. I'd def at least upgrade the rod bolts, mains, and head bolts. However, heres a little fun fact for all of you: Stock rods are not supposed to be torqued more then five times. Think about it, they get torqued at least twice from the factory and if you remove the bolts you have to torque them again when you install the upgraded bolts and yet again when you torque them into the engine. Your only making them weaker. I'd think about it unless you want a day light seeking piston and rod.

RedZone

Long story short...Honda pistons are not designed for Boost apps....There for the Rings land will end up cracking and you will not really no it until it is too late....I had a customer who drove around for a few months not knowing that the ring land cracked, he though he was just burning a little oil because of the turbo, and when we took the head off and the pistons out we found the cylinder wall deeply scared because of it......

If you want to be reliable about it, then replace the pistons and rings....no need to replace the rods, you can boost 10lbs or so with stock rods....I would just upgrade the rod bolts to ARP and maybe shotpeen the rods and rocon them if you have a little cash to spare......

hope this helps a little.

turboEGhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RedZone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to be reliable about it, then replace the pistons and rings....no need to replace the rods, you can boost 10lbs or so with stock rods....I would just upgrade the rod bolts to ARP and maybe shotpeen the rods and rocon them if you have a little cash to spare......</TD></TR></TABLE>

That sounds good and fine and all, but by the time you have the rods shotpeened, machined for forged pistons, and put new ARP hardware into them you're only 100-150 bucks shy of a set of brand new, stronger Eagle rods.


Modified by turboEGhatch at 12:35 PM 10/15/2005

RedZone

who said anything about machining anything.....

Aftermarket Pistons fit onto stock rods without machining and it should only cost $40.00 to have them pressed on....

Im not saying you have to get rod bolts and shot peen the rods...just suggesting...besides, if someone was on this tight of a budget then they are going to reuse thier rod bearings (not reccommended, can be done) and if you get new rods then you will need new rod bearings so that brings the cost up aswell.....

Im just making suggestions.....

Either way,

if your trying to save every penny and still make it reliable and fast then you will have to sacrifice somethings for others.....

Now if he was going to boost 6lbs or less then I would say keep it stock, but this situation here shows that the person wants to boost more then 6lbs.....and Changing the pistons would be the bear minimum I would do if he was on a budget and did not want to have any problems down the road....

master honda tech

I'd just save up an buy forged rods, that way you dont have to worry about it. But its your money and your motor.

HiProfile

Sounds more like he's already made up his mind. That, and exactly what the setup will take. Keep in mind that LS internals are usually good till 250whp, and that's reving to 7k.

Its usually the power and slight detonation that will cause ringlands to break. Both pistons will break in the same spot. All the lower compression will do is allow for more flexability in the tune, meaning with the same power you can worry a bit less.

The fact that remains is that eventually stock internals will fail eventually when ran near their limits. $800 in safety &gt; scratched/broken block

RedZone

well put HiProfile

master honda tech

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sounds more like he's already made up his mind. That, and exactly what the setup will take. Keep in mind that LS internals are usually good till 250whp, and that's reving to 7k.

Its usually the power and slight detonation that will cause ringlands to break. Both pistons will break in the same spot. All the lower compression will do is allow for more flexability in the tune, meaning with the same power you can worry a bit less.

The fact that remains is that eventually stock internals will fail eventually when ran near their limits. $800 in safety &gt; scratched/broken block</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly stcok internals WILL FAIL! Either get forged internals or dont. But I would rather have the peace of mind knowing that I dont have to worry about my bottonm end. It's worth the money. But its up to you.

TurboJesse

i used to have a b16 with ls pistons...never dyno'ed but trapped 123mph in a street del sol, so it was making power...motor never blew either.

havok hybrid

i had a good buddie of mine that had a b16a with pr4 ls pistons in it.. boosted 12 psi daily on it.. 16 and even 18 a few nights on it .. and it never broke the block.. a valve droped at 9k ..


I would say a b16 with pr4 pistons in good for 10 daily if tuned. no problems at all..

Stock OEM LS will take 14 psi on pump gas no problems too.. i have done it.. 311 whp on stock oem ls vtec ..