are those wg's in that pic mounted backwards or is it just me?

 

gotcha

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Common lets not fight in here I wanted a good reason why I should go single plenum, when race setup's are using ITB's w/ forced induction.

I would like to really see proof.

Engineer or not. As long you can prove your claim.

Tony has a good reason in his last paragraph there.


Modified by MidShipCivic at 4:08 AM 9/19/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony the Tiger &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have the tapered 51mm throttles</TD></TR></TABLE>


Tony, where can I get Tb's that size? I know cbr and gxr tb's are 40 something. better yet do you mind doing a write up whith photos on how you made this?

also what about your factory sensors? where are they?

 

I see advantages to each side and disadvantages. I know the Single TB and intake mani is proven in Drag Racing and all the Pro's and Hot rod cars are using this as opposed to ITB's. Even Erick Aguilar is using an inake manifold/single TB as opposed to ITB's in all motor. Cost is an issue I see, I THINK that the single TB and intake mani works because of the HUGE VOLUME of air coming into the intake manifold and stuffed into each cylinder, downsides also is uneven distribution BUT the opening and closing of valves orchestrates this also. Companies have tried to make the intake manifold where the TB is dead center in teh back but you would need a crazy bend to use it, that didn't seem to pick up for us. I do know that some pro cars have an air/water intercooler inside their cabins now like Mustang guys and route it throug the firewall and into the intake manifold through the firewall to the back of the manifold. The advantages have not been posted by anyone that I am aware of , maybe it is just to use a bigger Ait to water ic I dunno. The disadvantage sof the ITB method is you have the plenum before the TB and then can only allow the amount of air.boost into the runners which is dictated by the TB size, it seems the throttle response is instantaneous. To truely determine the best method is to actually Dyno tune before and after of each and test each on the track. The single TB and IM combo is tried and proven and people have shown that the GTIR and Skylines swap to single TB and Intake mani set ups. Geoff is well educuated and has graduated as an engineer, he studies and tests things and understands much more than the avergae guy. Also I think Tony1, Bob Norwood(if he would come online), Larry from Endyn, Brad Z with RLZ Engineering, Jeff Evans, or any of the headporters who have flow info and know what works, enginebuilders. These are the people who know the ins and outs of motors and what works. But Geoff would prolly tell anyone , what works on paper doesn't always work in the real world. We have proven that physics wasn;t correct in our FWD Drag cars!

 

Couple things I have to say about this. and before I do I wanna say I am no engineer/engine builder or anything like that, and I respect everyones knowledge and opinions now..

as far as drag cars, low end response isnt important when you are getting out the hole at 8000 rpms and 15 pounds of boost and when the cars are staging is the only time they see under 5k. the whole race is 8k and up. with over 30psi. so wy would you need ITB's on a drag car? however street cars arent driven like this

Tony the Tiger is claiming better throttle response from low rpms and between gears, and a much wider powerband. these things will without a doubt be very usefull on a street car. Hondas with 500hp+ on the street for one is useless, and not needed (just my opinion dont flame) but also has poor throttle response from low speeds because the turbos are too big. with an ITB it would seem that you would have an even broader power band with that same big turbo.

Now again this is just my opinion/views and I'm not trying to diss full race in anyway. but why would your manifold and 60mm plus turbos be better on a street car(especially b16's) when you have an effective powerband of only 6k-9k, because of the lag and poor throttle response.
(that was just an example)

It would seem that those huge turbos would at least be a bit better streetwise if you could at least make the same power 4k-9k so for people with more "practical turbos" like a sc34, they would have a faster spool and a much more driveable low end car, a more responsive low end car, and may even increase fuel economy and in the end they still can make more top end power than you can use. making power from 3k-redline is better than 6k-redline.

if you can make 500whp and still have all motor low end throttle response (or somewhat near to it) less lag, less downshifting.

I think what it all boils down to is Tony the Tiger has to help us with dyno sheets, and video clips, but from all I gathered it would seem that ITB's have more PRO's than CON's on a street car. These benefits are obviously not needed on a drag car





Modified by Boostage at 5:18 PM 9/19/2004

 

Well I guess my thoughts are strictly on a Drag race set up. I do drive my car on the street and when I do I love it!!!! I do have to rev the **** out of it to get it spool fully but that is the scarifice I made for a huge turbo, but when the power hits it HITS!!! The ITBS may be better for a straight street car due to low and mid range and Tony The Tiger has a relaitively small turbo with the Disco Potato but it is ball bearing and small and that would be a true street car turbo. I meant to make point of Drag cars are all 7000rpm and up and that is true, tht is why usually mods you make from turbos, to intake manis to cams TBs etec etc you sacrifice low end for top end usually.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostfed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well I guess my thoughts are strictly on a Drag race set up. I do drive my car on the street and when I do I love it!!!! I do have to rev the **** out of it to get it spool fully but that is the scarifice I made for a huge turbo, but when the power hits it HITS!!! The ITBS may be better for a straight street car due to low and mid range and Tony The Tiger has a relaitively small turbo with the Disco Potato but it is ball bearing and small and that would be a true street car turbo. I meant to make point of Drag cars are all 7000rpm and up and that is true, tht is why usually mods you make from turbos, to intake manis to cams TBs etec etc you sacrifice low end for top end usually. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I bet if you made the same 600whp and not have to rev it as much to get the car going, you would enjoy it better. ITB's make damn good sense on a F1 car over a drag car. F1 cars have to stop from time to time. then get back up to speed quickly. drag cars dont stop or see low rpms during a race.

 

It was ovious he wasn't going for a crazy power setup...Ive been in a few pulsar gtr's with ITB's and garrett BB's and the powerband is amazing for a street car.

 

OH btw I did not mean that because you were not a top engine builder or Engineer that your opinions and/or thoughts were not valued as anyone else. In case anyone mistook what I posted. I am PERFERCTLY happy with my set up now actually, wouldn't change a thing unless Full Race/Garrett made a GT4067R with dual ball bearings!


Modified by Boostfed at 4:01 PM 9/19/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostfed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OH btw I did not mean that because you were not a top engine builder or Engineer that your opinions and/or thoughts were not valued as anyone else. In case anyone mistook what I posted. I am PERFERCTLY happy with my set up now actually, wouldn't change a thing unless Full Race/Garrett made a GT4067R with dual ball bearings! </TD></TR></TABLE>

 

lets see a dyno graph...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by donkiman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lets see a dyno graph...</TD></TR></TABLE>

A dyno graph wouldn't show anything in reality... It doesn't show response, it doesn't show acceleration. The powerband may be wide, but it doesn't show the properties of ITB's.

There are no dyno plots for a GT28RS equipped GSR/B-series with 11.5:1 CR either... There is nothing out there to compare with except my very own setup...lol

I don't have a dyno sheet of my setup with a single TB IM (my old ITR IM and TB) , and I don't look foward to swapping manifolds in and out because this Integra is currently my daily driver. Both setups require completely different tune and is very time consuming to create a before and after dyno plot.

There is no way to compare the before and after ITB's.

Again, no doubt a single TB setup works... However, it would depend on how much power you plan to have. If your goal is to break WHP records, then by all means, horsepower is everything. But if your goal is to have a fixed amount of power but with great response and power everywhere, ITB's may be a choice for you. ITB's may hinder the peak power, but it really depends on how the ITB's are configurated.

My particular goal was to have a maximum of 320 WHP and the widest powerband available. Thus, my 9200RPM redline, ITR cams, and ITB's -- was to simulate an NA car but with a lot more power.

All I can offer are videos... From the videos, you guys can be the judge. It's like back in the days when people didn't know how a high powered NA Honda accelerated... My good ol' video gave everyone an idea. So this time again, I will try to do the same Eventually, I will have some track times to give everyone a good reference.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostfed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The single TB and IM combo is tried and proven and people have shown that the GTIR and Skylines swap to single TB and Intake mani set ups. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, but only for drag. It's a lot simpler and cheaper to setup and effectively gain high-end power with a single TB setup. Again, like I have mentioned before, most folks only thinks about drag racing and wants top-end power. As for Mines GTR, the GTR's in JGTC, they all have ITB's but modified and configurated different for higher power levels.

But for a lot of us, we drive these turbo hondas on the streets. They are not trailor queens. The moment the car is on the streets, it suffers from shitty low-end, excessive wheel spin and lagginess. What if the ITB's are able to setup for both low-end and high-end power, but the only drawback was a higher price tag and more tuning? On a race car, I don't see this a good option because of cost vs HP vs drag 1/4mile ET's. ITB's are not useful. But for an average car enthusisast, I am sure that some people here would love to spend more money, but at the same time, gain both low-end and highend. Aren't we here to build a great everyday street car as well as a weekend warrior?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Tony, where can I get Tb's that size? I know cbr and gxr tb's are 40 something. better yet do you mind doing a write up whith photos on how you made this?

also what about your factory sensors? where are they?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The ones I have were from Hayward Performance... It used to be for my NA setup... came with horns and everything. But I modified it and custom made a manifold. The manifold bolts up to where the horns used to bolt up.

MAP is on the vacuum log, IACV was fitted with a custom flange with 1/4" NPT ports (fitted with a barbed fitting). A hose is plumbed from the IACV back to the vacuum log (like the ENDYN/Air intake manifold setup). TPS is located at the end of the throttleplate shaft. Air temp sensor is mounted onto the log manifold of the ITB's.

 

having a hell of a time finding bike ITB's

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostfed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The disadvantage sof the ITB method is you have the plenum before the TB and then can only allow the amount of air.boost into the runners which is dictated by the TB size, it seems the throttle response is instantaneous. To truely determine the best method is to actually Dyno tune before and after of each and test each on the track. The single TB and IM combo is tried and proven and people have shown that the GTIR and Skylines swap to single TB and Intake mani set ups. Geoff is well educuated and has graduated as an engineer, he studies and tests things and understands much more than the avergae guy. Also I think Tony1, Bob Norwood(if he would come online), Larry from Endyn, Brad Z with RLZ Engineering, Jeff Evans, or any of the headporters who have flow info and know what works, enginebuilders. These are the people who know the ins and outs of motors and what works. But Geoff would prolly tell anyone , what works on paper doesn't always work in the real world.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Were talking about forced induction not all motor drag cars.

No, its not a fact all people change there IM in there skylines some get bigger ones, and it suck overall cause it uses MAF.

Well Still see no facts about in there ITB w/ FI the fastest road cars that turn are using them.

ITB's are to increase low and AND TOP END.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Were talking about forced induction not all motor drag cars.

No, its not a fact all people change there IM in there skylines some get bigger ones, and it suck overall cause it uses MAF.

Well Still see no facts about in there ITB w/ FI the fastest road cars that turn are using them.

ITB's are to increase low and AND TOP END.</TD></TR></TABLE>


agreed, I have decided to do an ITB setup

 

Is this the type of throttle response to be expected with ITB's?

http://www.icsperformance.com/Ludlomvid1.wmv

 

I was doing some reading @ barnes n noble.

What geoff is saying is right itb with the tb after the plenum affects the fuel delivery on high end and that resonate rule.

If geoff explained it alot better I would be more assured.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is this the type of throttle response to be expected with ITB's?

http://www.icsperformance.com/Ludlomvid1.wmv</TD></TR></TABLE>
Fuggin cool video, holy ***** that thing ripped

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was doing some reading @ barnes n noble.

What geoff is saying is right itb with the tb after the plenum affects the fuel delivery on high end and that resonate rule.

If geoff explained it alot better I would be more assured.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what book was that

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bonestockls &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Fuggin cool video, holy ***** that thing ripped</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah they got 6 throttlebodies

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was doing some reading @ barnes n noble.

What geoff is saying is right itb with the tb after the plenum affects the fuel delivery on high end and that resonate rule.

If geoff explained it alot better I would be more assured.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Still doesn't explain why this resonance wouldn't apply for boosted motors with ITB's... The source of air for a turbo motor is the turbocharger itself. In order for the turbo to spool, the throttle must be opened first. The boosted air from the turbo would then rush into the motor AFTER the throttlebody (s) are opened -- that means the throttlebody placement shouldn't affect anything because they are opened before the air can even reach there. The air inside the manifold will still undergo the same path into the engine regardless of the throttlebody placement -- ITB's or single.

From my research, ITB's are superior in every way. The only drawback is the price difference, and the effort it takes to make it work correctly. In drag racing, which is extremeny popular in this forum, ITB's are just a waste of time unless you want response and a fatter power curve..

 

The turbo charger is not a throttle plate its always sucks in the air the rule applys to boosted motors I'm assured now.