ITB's with FI
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Re: (dmoto)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dmoto »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
physics is math </TD></TR></TABLE>
Physics is the study of the most fundamental interactions between time, space, energy and matter.
Mathematics
(n.) That science, or class of sciences, which treats of the exact relations existing between quantities or magnitudes, and of the methods by which, in accordance with these relations, quantities sought are deducible from other quantities known or supposed; the science of spatial and quantitative relations.
now stfu and stay on topic
physics is math </TD></TR></TABLE>
Physics is the study of the most fundamental interactions between time, space, energy and matter.
Mathematics
(n.) That science, or class of sciences, which treats of the exact relations existing between quantities or magnitudes, and of the methods by which, in accordance with these relations, quantities sought are deducible from other quantities known or supposed; the science of spatial and quantitative relations.
now stfu and stay on topic
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (MidShipCivic)
in many applications, particularly f1, or even a large displacement big block motor or so, one thing you need to realize is in order to properly size a turbo plenum, the thing is approaching the size of a 55 gallon drum (im exagerating, but you get the point). In an application like this, there is NO WAY you can possibly fit an appropriately sized plenum under the hood of a vehicle NOR under the cowl of an f1 car. Also, these things are still made out of 100+ thou wall tubes, so weight does become an issue.
Effectively, its pretty simple. If you can, use a single TB plenum. If you see the size of the plenums on our intake manifolds, which are for very tiny motors, reving only to about 8500-9000 or so, compare that to a plenum for an f1 car revinng to 16k or a motor with 8L displacement.
I will not share the math, but i can pound out some numbers on a spreadsheet we have develeoped to show you the gross overall displacement required for an ideal plenum
With ITBs there are no calculations for resonant frequencies, as there is no plenum. Overall, an itb setup will be way more powerful than a substandard, compromised intake manifold. At the same time, a properly designed single inlet plenum manifold will have a higher peak but lower area.
Effectively, its pretty simple. If you can, use a single TB plenum. If you see the size of the plenums on our intake manifolds, which are for very tiny motors, reving only to about 8500-9000 or so, compare that to a plenum for an f1 car revinng to 16k or a motor with 8L displacement.
I will not share the math, but i can pound out some numbers on a spreadsheet we have develeoped to show you the gross overall displacement required for an ideal plenum
With ITBs there are no calculations for resonant frequencies, as there is no plenum. Overall, an itb setup will be way more powerful than a substandard, compromised intake manifold. At the same time, a properly designed single inlet plenum manifold will have a higher peak but lower area.
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Look @ this ultima GTR with chevy motor it has ITB's twin turbo and makes 1300bhp and capable of 245mph.
Why not single plenum?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
and to come back with your question, why an on center turbine housing? It is very common knowledge on center turbine hsg's are nowhere near as efficient as true undivided tangentials... a lot of engineers design things without appropriate research...
Why not single plenum?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
and to come back with your question, why an on center turbine housing? It is very common knowledge on center turbine hsg's are nowhere near as efficient as true undivided tangentials... a lot of engineers design things without appropriate research...
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From: Ft. Smith, AR, USA
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
And whats up with the way those wastegates are mounted. It looks like the discharge flange is connected to the collector. Their friggin bassackwards. The pic on the first page shows it best.
jeff
jeff
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Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in many applications, particularly f1, or even a large displacement big block motor or so, one thing you need to realize is in order to properly size a turbo plenum, the thing is approaching the size of a 55 gallon drum (im exagerating, but you get the point). In an application like this, there is NO WAY you can possibly fit an appropriately sized plenum under the hood of a vehicle NOR under the cowl of an f1 car. Also, these things are still made out of 100+ thou wall tubes, so weight does become an issue.
Effectively, its pretty simple. If you can, use a single TB plenum. If you see the size of the plenums on our intake manifolds, which are for very tiny motors, reving only to about 8500-9000 or so, compare that to a plenum for an f1 car revinng to 16k or a motor with 8L displacement.
I will not share the math, but i can pound out some numbers on a spreadsheet we have develeoped to show you the gross overall displacement required for an ideal plenum
With ITBs there are no calculations for resonant frequencies, as there is no plenum. Overall, an itb setup will be way more powerful than a substandard, compromised intake manifold. At the same time, a properly designed single inlet plenum manifold will have a higher peak but lower area.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So your getting a wider powerband with ITB's and more peak power with stb's ok then power for power woundst the ITB car be better. example:
400whp ITB car making more low end and mid tange and peaks at 9200
vs
400whp stb making little low end, not as much mid range and peaks at 9400
is its like this then ITB's might be better for a street car.
Effectively, its pretty simple. If you can, use a single TB plenum. If you see the size of the plenums on our intake manifolds, which are for very tiny motors, reving only to about 8500-9000 or so, compare that to a plenum for an f1 car revinng to 16k or a motor with 8L displacement.
I will not share the math, but i can pound out some numbers on a spreadsheet we have develeoped to show you the gross overall displacement required for an ideal plenum
With ITBs there are no calculations for resonant frequencies, as there is no plenum. Overall, an itb setup will be way more powerful than a substandard, compromised intake manifold. At the same time, a properly designed single inlet plenum manifold will have a higher peak but lower area.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So your getting a wider powerband with ITB's and more peak power with stb's ok then power for power woundst the ITB car be better. example:
400whp ITB car making more low end and mid tange and peaks at 9200
vs
400whp stb making little low end, not as much mid range and peaks at 9400
is its like this then ITB's might be better for a street car.
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From: MD
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<--- dozen beers in stomach, this might not make sense.
In a single throttle body plenum type intake mani, is the pressure (when the intake valves are closed) inside of the manifold equal across all parts of the manifold (given that the manifold has been properly designed)?
In a single throttle body plenum type intake mani, is the pressure (when the intake valves are closed) inside of the manifold equal across all parts of the manifold (given that the manifold has been properly designed)?
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Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
What if someone made an ideal plenum for ITB's 2.4 k24 that would be used on boost, that would be a big plenum?
Let keep this as an example: I want to use k24 on boost w/ ITB's so I paid you to produce a plenum, you take on from here.....
because I don't understand @ the moment.
Let keep this as an example: I want to use k24 on boost w/ ITB's so I paid you to produce a plenum, you take on from here.....
because I don't understand @ the moment.
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From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Re: (Boostage)
Most of you guys are correct... generally, ITB's are harder to tune, harder to achieve the "perfect" setup.
It's a trade off, but you have to think about which is harder to obtain -- Is peak HP harder to obtain, or is power under the curve and response harder to obtain?
Why design intake manifolds which allows a wider power curve? Why design plenums that has a good runner length and good volume? All in all, we are trying to make the most useable powerband available. Why the great spooling turbos? Shouldn't we all use T88's?
Peak power is nice, but a simple turn up the boost or step up to a larger turbo will get you there (but powerband turns to **** of course).
In a regular single TB intake manifold, each cylinder does not receive equal air all the times. All the designs we have seen so far try to achieve this. ie: Air/ENDYN, Full-race's design, etc... The plenum starts off wide at cylinder #4 and narrows down at cylinder #1 in order to equalize the pressure at all four runners.
ITB's have four separate throttles, and the pressure between each runner is virtually identical. The throttleplate does indeed cause restriction, but it can be eliminated by proper throttle sizing. Plenum volume can also be calculated because it is still utilizing a manifold before the butterflies.
There is no loss by installing ITB's... But proper tuning and setup is critical. Generally, it takes a lot of time and effort to run an ITB setup. Most turbo guys just wants big power, and wheelspin is often cool for them. They would rather opt for something that is simple, effective and gives "results" on the dyno.
For race cars or even street cars-- roadracing in particular -- powerband and response is extremely important. Dyno is only for reference, but actual acceleration and response is what they measure their performance by. That is why you see ITB's in every roadracing car. JGTC skylines of all generations all use ITB's. Indy cars, etc... ITB's hard to setup, but is superior in every way if setup correctly.
Eventually, I will get a dyno plot, and most importantly, a video clip of my car banging through the gears. It will be an eye opener. I have never been inside any turbo honda that bangs through the gears without hesitation... except mine
It's a trade off, but you have to think about which is harder to obtain -- Is peak HP harder to obtain, or is power under the curve and response harder to obtain?
Why design intake manifolds which allows a wider power curve? Why design plenums that has a good runner length and good volume? All in all, we are trying to make the most useable powerband available. Why the great spooling turbos? Shouldn't we all use T88's?
Peak power is nice, but a simple turn up the boost or step up to a larger turbo will get you there (but powerband turns to **** of course). In a regular single TB intake manifold, each cylinder does not receive equal air all the times. All the designs we have seen so far try to achieve this. ie: Air/ENDYN, Full-race's design, etc... The plenum starts off wide at cylinder #4 and narrows down at cylinder #1 in order to equalize the pressure at all four runners.
ITB's have four separate throttles, and the pressure between each runner is virtually identical. The throttleplate does indeed cause restriction, but it can be eliminated by proper throttle sizing. Plenum volume can also be calculated because it is still utilizing a manifold before the butterflies.
There is no loss by installing ITB's... But proper tuning and setup is critical. Generally, it takes a lot of time and effort to run an ITB setup. Most turbo guys just wants big power, and wheelspin is often cool for them. They would rather opt for something that is simple, effective and gives "results" on the dyno.
For race cars or even street cars-- roadracing in particular -- powerband and response is extremely important. Dyno is only for reference, but actual acceleration and response is what they measure their performance by. That is why you see ITB's in every roadracing car. JGTC skylines of all generations all use ITB's. Indy cars, etc... ITB's hard to setup, but is superior in every way if setup correctly.
Eventually, I will get a dyno plot, and most importantly, a video clip of my car banging through the gears. It will be an eye opener. I have never been inside any turbo honda that bangs through the gears without hesitation... except mine
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Re: (Boostage)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostage »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah Im sold. this is at least worth the attempt. btw what size throttle bodies do you have?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have the tapered 51mm throttles
I have the tapered 51mm throttles
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Re: (Tony the Tiger)
There's a night and day difference comparing F1 engines with mass production honda engines. There's no comparison between the two no matter what is done to a 4 cylinder honda engine. Those engine operate an nearly double the RPM than we do and powerband is completely different.
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Re: (Tomakit)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tomakit »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In a single throttle body plenum type intake mani, is the pressure (when the intake valves are closed) inside of the manifold equal across all parts of the manifold (given that the manifold has been properly designed)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, in fact when you calculate plenum volume, you have to add the volume of 3 runners to the plenum to get the net overall plenum volume...
yes, in fact when you calculate plenum volume, you have to add the volume of 3 runners to the plenum to get the net overall plenum volume...
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What if someone made an ideal plenum for ITB's 2.4 k24 that would be used on boost, that would be a big plenum?</TD></TR></TABLE>
i think what you dont realize is that if the plenum is BEFORE the butterfly (in the case of an ITB setup) you dont get any benefits as there is no such thing as a helmholtz resonance with an itb setup.
i think what you dont realize is that if the plenum is BEFORE the butterfly (in the case of an ITB setup) you dont get any benefits as there is no such thing as a helmholtz resonance with an itb setup.
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Re: (egizzle6)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by egizzle6 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a night and day difference comparing F1 engines with mass production honda engines. There's no comparison between the two no matter what is done to a 4 cylinder honda engine. Those engine operate an nearly double the RPM than we do and powerband is completely different. </TD></TR></TABLE>
and they idle at 7500...
and they idle at 7500...
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Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think the way you "bang thru the gears" probably has a lot to do with your baby turbo more than anything on the intake side.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope... I was running a ported ITR intake manifold and overbored throttlebody for past two weeks. The car would hesitate between shifts and throttle response was like a typical turbo car. Although the GT28RS spools like crazy and boost would come instantly, the engine doesn't react to the instant boost and didn't really "lurched" forward like an NA car. It never banged through the gears.
This ITB setup was installed 3 days ago... I tuned the car and took it for a run. Immediately, the car felt amazing. By blipping the throttle in neutral, the engine revved up and down freely. More power everywhere, and the power came on tap. The car would continue to accelerate, and right away, it felt very familiar, like an all motor setup -- but with a lot more power.
That is why I am so thrilled to share this with you guys. Not many members here would have an ITB sitting in the basement to experiment with. Myself on the other hand, came from an all out NA setup to a boosted setup, and still, I had the NA mentality when building this turbo setup
Nope... I was running a ported ITR intake manifold and overbored throttlebody for past two weeks. The car would hesitate between shifts and throttle response was like a typical turbo car. Although the GT28RS spools like crazy and boost would come instantly, the engine doesn't react to the instant boost and didn't really "lurched" forward like an NA car. It never banged through the gears.
This ITB setup was installed 3 days ago... I tuned the car and took it for a run. Immediately, the car felt amazing. By blipping the throttle in neutral, the engine revved up and down freely. More power everywhere, and the power came on tap. The car would continue to accelerate, and right away, it felt very familiar, like an all motor setup -- but with a lot more power.
That is why I am so thrilled to share this with you guys. Not many members here would have an ITB sitting in the basement to experiment with. Myself on the other hand, came from an all out NA setup to a boosted setup, and still, I had the NA mentality when building this turbo setup
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Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Helmholtz resonance with an itb setup.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What exactly is that?
I don't make IMs, BTW how long have you been making them?
That still doesn't explain why F1, Indy Cart, and JGTC used them you say high powered cars I call that high powered.
Helmholtz resonance with an itb setup.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
What exactly is that?
I don't make IMs, BTW how long have you been making them?
That still doesn't explain why F1, Indy Cart, and JGTC used them you say high powered cars I call that high powered.
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From: ashEVILle, NC, USSR
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a lot of engineers design things without appropriate research...</TD></TR></TABLE>
And a lot of people who aren't yet engineers insinuate they are, and make over-hyped manifolds out of thick industrial plumbing that act as heat sinks and are far and away NOT the ideal design, despite claims, despite exhorbinant pricetags, and despite the fact they tried to rip off Kook's superior design. Despite the fact they claim everyone else ripped it off them.
I like the rest of your product line, though, and think it is very well designed.
And a lot of people who aren't yet engineers insinuate they are, and make over-hyped manifolds out of thick industrial plumbing that act as heat sinks and are far and away NOT the ideal design, despite claims, despite exhorbinant pricetags, and despite the fact they tried to rip off Kook's superior design. Despite the fact they claim everyone else ripped it off them.
I like the rest of your product line, though, and think it is very well designed.
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Re:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What exactly is that?
I don't make IMs, BTW how long have you been making them?
That still doesn't explain why F1, Indy Cart, and JGTC used them you say high powered cars I call that high powered.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a resonance created by varying air pressure as air enters through a port/entry into a given space. Simple example would be blowing air into a bottle, thus creating a resonance. It is caused by air trying to enter a given space (ie: bottle)under the same atmospheric pressure, but the air bounces back out, causing a frequency -- a slight pressure spike.
In our car terms, the given space would be the manifold and plenum (log), the entrance would be the throttlebody opening.
Perhaps this was what Geoff was referring to for Helmholtz resonance. I might be wrong because I have only briefly studied it.
But I still do not understand how this resonance cannot be recreated with ITB's. The air source is the turbo and not atmoshperic air, so it throws everything out of equation anyways. It doesn't quite work like an NA motor. The throttlebody has to open before the turbo can spool and push air, so it shouldn't matter where the throttleplate is located inside the charged system because the throttleplates are already fully opened. It would be awesome if Full-race Geoff could shed some light on this, in a single TB manifold vs ITB with a log (my setup)
What exactly is that?
I don't make IMs, BTW how long have you been making them?
That still doesn't explain why F1, Indy Cart, and JGTC used them you say high powered cars I call that high powered.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's a resonance created by varying air pressure as air enters through a port/entry into a given space. Simple example would be blowing air into a bottle, thus creating a resonance. It is caused by air trying to enter a given space (ie: bottle)under the same atmospheric pressure, but the air bounces back out, causing a frequency -- a slight pressure spike.
In our car terms, the given space would be the manifold and plenum (log), the entrance would be the throttlebody opening.
Perhaps this was what Geoff was referring to for Helmholtz resonance. I might be wrong because I have only briefly studied it.
But I still do not understand how this resonance cannot be recreated with ITB's. The air source is the turbo and not atmoshperic air, so it throws everything out of equation anyways. It doesn't quite work like an NA motor. The throttlebody has to open before the turbo can spool and push air, so it shouldn't matter where the throttleplate is located inside the charged system because the throttleplates are already fully opened. It would be awesome if Full-race Geoff could shed some light on this, in a single TB manifold vs ITB with a log (my setup)
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (J. Davis)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
And a lot of people who aren't yet engineers insinuate they are</TD></TR></TABLE>
j davis -- i really do not understand wtf is up your ***. you are the most irritiating know-it-all idiot i can think of on h-t and by my posting this you will more than likely smile and say "your cooler than i thought geoff". You honestly should be on some sort of prescribed medication.
We graduated engineering school a while ago, but thanks for caring.
And a lot of people who aren't yet engineers insinuate they are</TD></TR></TABLE>
j davis -- i really do not understand wtf is up your ***. you are the most irritiating know-it-all idiot i can think of on h-t and by my posting this you will more than likely smile and say "your cooler than i thought geoff". You honestly should be on some sort of prescribed medication.
We graduated engineering school a while ago, but thanks for caring.
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From: Altamonte Springs/Orlando, Florida, USA
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
Common lets not fight in here I wanted a good reason why I should go single plenum, when race setup's are using ITB's w/ forced induction.
I would like to really see proof.
Engineer or not. As long you can prove your claim.
Tony has a good reason in his last paragraph there.
Modified by MidShipCivic at 4:08 AM 9/19/2004
I would like to really see proof.
Engineer or not. As long you can prove your claim.
Tony has a good reason in his last paragraph there.
Modified by MidShipCivic at 4:08 AM 9/19/2004