Installed the Z10 Bars
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Re: Installed the Z10 Bars (00ITR #543)
Well, I have a very stiff rear swaybar... The car definately wants to oversteer with throttle off/braking in a corner.
If anything the car is more tail happy now, but I haven't pushed it to the limits.
Dustin
If anything the car is more tail happy now, but I haven't pushed it to the limits.
Dustin
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From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Re: Installed the Z10 Bars (DIRep972)
damn u, I really need to get around to installing those things on my car. There the only thing ive had longer then my hondata. 
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry...
Compromises. Thats what everything automotive is about.
In the case of a civic/integra suspension geometry, compromises were made with both designs.
The competition engineering bars are without a doubt, the most dangerous, most poorly designed suspension component i have ever seen for *any* vehicle. No serious car should run those bars. The reason behind this is that the arms go straight forwards. In order to think about suspension you need to realize that every suspension arm on a car has an imaginary axis (ill try to put this as simply as posisble i know its weird thiniking in these terms) on which the arms rotate.
The lower control arm appears to go up and down, but in fact it really goes in a cricle, it follows an arc. The center of the circle is where the control arm mounts to the frame, obviously. This main pivot point is what dictates how the wheel will move throughout its travel. All suspension designers know this and design suspensions that have arms which keep an identical arc throught the entire wheel path. If one arm has a different arc than *any* of the others, binding occurs and the suspension will tear itself apart.
The competition engineering arms go straight forwards. As a result there is NO ARC at all. I mean none. zero arc, nothing. This causes the car to have little to no suspension movement at all. The binding is very vicious, and the illusion is now that the car doesnt wheelhop. If you think about its, it is perfectly clear!! How can the car have wheelhop, if the wheels cant move!!! The suspension is stuck in place. Dangerous, unsafe to the vehicle's structural integrity, and all in all, poor engineering.
When i was working on the z10 bars, i learned a bit about arcs. The first prototype we made was very poor and put the bars in the same location as the competition engineering bars (mind you, this was before the comp eng. bars existed). This was a simple place to put them and made for an easily manufactured product. This obviously binded and it was apparent that if i put any distance on my car using that arc i would tear up my front end.
The next prototype was much much better. The arms were lengthened, and the arcs were made to be as ideal as possible. The passenger side arc was 100% dead on, perfect. The drivers side arc was not so fortunate. Because the oil pan was in the way, a compromise had to be made. The arm was moved slightly to the side to make up for oil pan clearance. As a result some binding occured. Albeit the amount was VERY small, it was still there, nonetheless. As production went on, the sides were equaled to keep handling even on both sides, but now instead of the pass side being perfect binding was introduced. As a result, even tho it is close, there is still going to be some binding action between the arms and the radius rod. This is why many long time radius rod users have now started to see their bushings deteriorating or getting pulled out of the control arms.
The only real solution is to cut out the radiator support. A company i know of is making the radius rods 100% correctly. It isnt fully ready for production, but once it is, im sure many radius rod users will be switching over.
In the case of a civic/integra suspension geometry, compromises were made with both designs.
The competition engineering bars are without a doubt, the most dangerous, most poorly designed suspension component i have ever seen for *any* vehicle. No serious car should run those bars. The reason behind this is that the arms go straight forwards. In order to think about suspension you need to realize that every suspension arm on a car has an imaginary axis (ill try to put this as simply as posisble i know its weird thiniking in these terms) on which the arms rotate.
The lower control arm appears to go up and down, but in fact it really goes in a cricle, it follows an arc. The center of the circle is where the control arm mounts to the frame, obviously. This main pivot point is what dictates how the wheel will move throughout its travel. All suspension designers know this and design suspensions that have arms which keep an identical arc throught the entire wheel path. If one arm has a different arc than *any* of the others, binding occurs and the suspension will tear itself apart.
The competition engineering arms go straight forwards. As a result there is NO ARC at all. I mean none. zero arc, nothing. This causes the car to have little to no suspension movement at all. The binding is very vicious, and the illusion is now that the car doesnt wheelhop. If you think about its, it is perfectly clear!! How can the car have wheelhop, if the wheels cant move!!! The suspension is stuck in place. Dangerous, unsafe to the vehicle's structural integrity, and all in all, poor engineering.
When i was working on the z10 bars, i learned a bit about arcs. The first prototype we made was very poor and put the bars in the same location as the competition engineering bars (mind you, this was before the comp eng. bars existed). This was a simple place to put them and made for an easily manufactured product. This obviously binded and it was apparent that if i put any distance on my car using that arc i would tear up my front end.
The next prototype was much much better. The arms were lengthened, and the arcs were made to be as ideal as possible. The passenger side arc was 100% dead on, perfect. The drivers side arc was not so fortunate. Because the oil pan was in the way, a compromise had to be made. The arm was moved slightly to the side to make up for oil pan clearance. As a result some binding occured. Albeit the amount was VERY small, it was still there, nonetheless. As production went on, the sides were equaled to keep handling even on both sides, but now instead of the pass side being perfect binding was introduced. As a result, even tho it is close, there is still going to be some binding action between the arms and the radius rod. This is why many long time radius rod users have now started to see their bushings deteriorating or getting pulled out of the control arms.
The only real solution is to cut out the radiator support. A company i know of is making the radius rods 100% correctly. It isnt fully ready for production, but once it is, im sure many radius rod users will be switching over.
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From: Va Beach, VA
Re: Installed the Z10 Bars (brcivic411)
Do you think these make you more prone to breaking axles? I was thinking that with the elimination of wheel hop it would actually be better on the axles but I was looking for some others opinions....
Smarter than you
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From: Third Coast, united states
Re: difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry... (FFgeoff)
Compromises. Thats what everything automotive is about.
In the case of a civic/integra suspension geometry, compromises were made with both designs.
The competition engineering bars are without a doubt, the most dangerous, most poorly designed suspension component i have ever seen for *any* vehicle. No serious car should run those bars. The reason behind this is that the arms go straight forwards. In order to think about suspension you need to realize that every suspension arm on a car has an imaginary axis (ill try to put this as simply as posisble i know its weird thiniking in these terms) on which the arms rotate.
The lower control arm appears to go up and down, but in fact it really goes in a cricle, it follows an arc. The center of the circle is where the control arm mounts to the frame, obviously. This main pivot point is what dictates how the wheel will move throughout its travel. All suspension designers know this and design suspensions that have arms which keep an identical arc throught the entire wheel path. If one arm has a different arc than *any* of the others, binding occurs and the suspension will tear itself apart.
The competition engineering arms go straight forwards. As a result there is NO ARC at all. I mean none. zero arc, nothing. This causes the car to have little to no suspension movement at all. The binding is very vicious, and the illusion is now that the car doesnt wheelhop. If you think about its, it is perfectly clear!! How can the car have wheelhop, if the wheels cant move!!! The suspension is stuck in place. Dangerous, unsafe to the vehicle's structural integrity, and all in all, poor engineering.
When i was working on the z10 bars, i learned a bit about arcs. The first prototype we made was very poor and put the bars in the same location as the competition engineering bars (mind you, this was before the comp eng. bars existed). This was a simple place to put them and made for an easily manufactured product. This obviously binded and it was apparent that if i put any distance on my car using that arc i would tear up my front end.
The next prototype was much much better. The arms were lengthened, and the arcs were made to be as ideal as possible. The passenger side arc was 100% dead on, perfect. The drivers side arc was not so fortunate. Because the oil pan was in the way, a compromise had to be made. The arm was moved slightly to the side to make up for oil pan clearance. As a result some binding occured. Albeit the amount was VERY small, it was still there, nonetheless. As production went on, the sides were equaled to keep handling even on both sides, but now instead of the pass side being perfect binding was introduced. As a result, even tho it is close, there is still going to be some binding action between the arms and the radius rod. This is why many long time radius rod users have now started to see their bushings deteriorating or getting pulled out of the control arms.
The only real solution is to cut out the radiator support. A company i know of is making the radius rods 100% correctly. It isnt fully ready for production, but once it is, im sure many radius rod users will be switching over.
In the case of a civic/integra suspension geometry, compromises were made with both designs.
The competition engineering bars are without a doubt, the most dangerous, most poorly designed suspension component i have ever seen for *any* vehicle. No serious car should run those bars. The reason behind this is that the arms go straight forwards. In order to think about suspension you need to realize that every suspension arm on a car has an imaginary axis (ill try to put this as simply as posisble i know its weird thiniking in these terms) on which the arms rotate.
The lower control arm appears to go up and down, but in fact it really goes in a cricle, it follows an arc. The center of the circle is where the control arm mounts to the frame, obviously. This main pivot point is what dictates how the wheel will move throughout its travel. All suspension designers know this and design suspensions that have arms which keep an identical arc throught the entire wheel path. If one arm has a different arc than *any* of the others, binding occurs and the suspension will tear itself apart.
The competition engineering arms go straight forwards. As a result there is NO ARC at all. I mean none. zero arc, nothing. This causes the car to have little to no suspension movement at all. The binding is very vicious, and the illusion is now that the car doesnt wheelhop. If you think about its, it is perfectly clear!! How can the car have wheelhop, if the wheels cant move!!! The suspension is stuck in place. Dangerous, unsafe to the vehicle's structural integrity, and all in all, poor engineering.
When i was working on the z10 bars, i learned a bit about arcs. The first prototype we made was very poor and put the bars in the same location as the competition engineering bars (mind you, this was before the comp eng. bars existed). This was a simple place to put them and made for an easily manufactured product. This obviously binded and it was apparent that if i put any distance on my car using that arc i would tear up my front end.
The next prototype was much much better. The arms were lengthened, and the arcs were made to be as ideal as possible. The passenger side arc was 100% dead on, perfect. The drivers side arc was not so fortunate. Because the oil pan was in the way, a compromise had to be made. The arm was moved slightly to the side to make up for oil pan clearance. As a result some binding occured. Albeit the amount was VERY small, it was still there, nonetheless. As production went on, the sides were equaled to keep handling even on both sides, but now instead of the pass side being perfect binding was introduced. As a result, even tho it is close, there is still going to be some binding action between the arms and the radius rod. This is why many long time radius rod users have now started to see their bushings deteriorating or getting pulled out of the control arms.
The only real solution is to cut out the radiator support. A company i know of is making the radius rods 100% correctly. It isnt fully ready for production, but once it is, im sure many radius rod users will be switching over.
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From: Virginia, US
Re: difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry... (FFgeoff)
FFGeoff:
anything on the Z10(from my previous post) girdle? -Or- do you know of any girdle that wouldnt need mods to make it work correctly?
anything on the Z10(from my previous post) girdle? -Or- do you know of any girdle that wouldnt need mods to make it work correctly?
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From: Va Beach, VA
Re: difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry... (Dublocivic)
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=162919
FFGeoff:First of all i no longer work for z10, even tho i staretd z10. I no longer have *anything* at all to do with them. The girdle is my design, and even tho they say it is a bolton it is dangerous to just bolt the girdle onto your engine. With that being said...
What you need to do to properly use the girdle, is to take the girdle to a machine shop and have them machine dowels into both the girdle AND the main caps. The dowels to use are the ones from the ITR or GSR. They are special order items, and if you look at the parts picture on a gsr layout at your dealer (TypeRparts.com isa great place, mike K is a good guy) you can see the dowels on the main caps. The machine shop will drill into the main cap and into the girlde and insert the dowels in. The girdle will move around if it is not doweled. This can cause a spun bearing or uneven bearing wear, as steve accurately said.
Next you need to have the main caps torqued down with the girdle in place. Torque the main bolts to GSR spec, not LS. now have the machine shop align hone it. The girdle places uneven forces on the main caps and it needs to be align honed or you could possibly spin a bearing.
do this stuff and it will work right. If you dont want to do it all, id rather not even run a girdle.
***not from z10*** *** i have nothing to do with z10***
What you need to do to properly use the girdle, is to take the girdle to a machine shop and have them machine dowels into both the girdle AND the main caps. The dowels to use are the ones from the ITR or GSR. They are special order items, and if you look at the parts picture on a gsr layout at your dealer (TypeRparts.com isa great place, mike K is a good guy) you can see the dowels on the main caps. The machine shop will drill into the main cap and into the girlde and insert the dowels in. The girdle will move around if it is not doweled. This can cause a spun bearing or uneven bearing wear, as steve accurately said.
Next you need to have the main caps torqued down with the girdle in place. Torque the main bolts to GSR spec, not LS. now have the machine shop align hone it. The girdle places uneven forces on the main caps and it needs to be align honed or you could possibly spin a bearing.
do this stuff and it will work right. If you dont want to do it all, id rather not even run a girdle.
***not from z10*** *** i have nothing to do with z10***
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From: Houston
Re: difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry... (newsense)
so if u want to use the Z10 arms daily and not mess up your bushings, couldnt i just leave it off and put it on during race days? would the Z10 benefit me even though i dont have wheel hops?
[Modified by JiSATSU RaceR, 11:07 PM 5/23/2002]
[Modified by JiSATSU RaceR, 11:07 PM 5/23/2002]
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From: Virginia, US
Re: difference between comp engineering, z10 and the truth of suspension geometry... (newsense)
Thanks new (ya net pimp 
)
I couldnt find that in the search wtf?
I will be reving over 9k 9500 or so. Hopefully it'll hold up to a few 9500 rpm zings at the track.
Thanks for the link.
)I couldnt find that in the search wtf?
I will be reving over 9k 9500 or so. Hopefully it'll hold up to a few 9500 rpm zings at the track.
Thanks for the link.
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Joined: Oct 2001
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From: SpeedFactory, WA
Re: Installed the Z10 Bars (dustin)
I have the Z10 bars on a '92-'92 civic with a sohc vtec motor with a greddy turbo kit. On this application, the passenger side arm hits the charge pipe coming out of the turbo. I had to trim 1-2 inches off of my charge pipe to get it up tighter to the turbo to clear the bars, but it was no biggie.
With a few turns of preload they did make the car feel much more stable, like on the freeway you won't get jerked around so much by the semi-truck grooves when changing lanes.
Sadly, I've not been able to eliminate wheelhop even with polyurethane motor mount inserts and the Z10 bars in both my coupe and hatch. It must be because both vehicles still have the <U>stock shocks</U> with lowering springs. Any thoughts on this?
DUSTIN:
When you say 3 turns of preload, what exactly do you mean.
You are pulling the arms toward the front of the car, right?
And did you rotate the flat spots around once so they came back around to the same spot as meaning 1 turn of preload? (this is actually only 1/2 turn of preload, so I assume you actually went with 1.5 turns)
The reason I say that is because after 1.5-2 turns, it gets super tight and feels like its going to rip out the rubber bushing in the suspension arm on my cars.
With a few turns of preload they did make the car feel much more stable, like on the freeway you won't get jerked around so much by the semi-truck grooves when changing lanes.
Sadly, I've not been able to eliminate wheelhop even with polyurethane motor mount inserts and the Z10 bars in both my coupe and hatch. It must be because both vehicles still have the <U>stock shocks</U> with lowering springs. Any thoughts on this?
DUSTIN:
When you say 3 turns of preload, what exactly do you mean.
You are pulling the arms toward the front of the car, right?
And did you rotate the flat spots around once so they came back around to the same spot as meaning 1 turn of preload? (this is actually only 1/2 turn of preload, so I assume you actually went with 1.5 turns)
The reason I say that is because after 1.5-2 turns, it gets super tight and feels like its going to rip out the rubber bushing in the suspension arm on my cars.
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From: Sacramento, CA
Re: Installed the Z10 Bars (JFK78)
When you say 3 turns of preload, what exactly do you mean.
You are pulling the arms toward the front of the car, right?
And did you rotate the flat spots around once so they came back around to the same spot as meaning 1 turn of preload? (this is actually only 1/2 turn of preload, so I assume you actually went with 1.5 turns)
The reason I say that is because after 1.5-2 turns, it gets super tight and feels like its going to rip out the rubber bushing in the suspension arm on my cars.
You are pulling the arms toward the front of the car, right?
And did you rotate the flat spots around once so they came back around to the same spot as meaning 1 turn of preload? (this is actually only 1/2 turn of preload, so I assume you actually went with 1.5 turns)
The reason I say that is because after 1.5-2 turns, it gets super tight and feels like its going to rip out the rubber bushing in the suspension arm on my cars.
I rotated the rods 3 times or 1080 degrees from the relaxed position. The last turn was kinda tough, but not too bad.
My wheelhop was worse with the motor mount inserts, I took them out a while ago and half of my wheel hop went away (stock torque and motor mounts now). I have tokico HP shocks (
)Dustin
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