hondata maps in an uberteg chip?
04-15-2003, 05:31 PM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">extremely doubtful</TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, you're full of technical posts this week. Yes it can be done, but I dont want todo it cuz of copyright bullshit.
edit: it prolyl woudl have been betetr to pm me about that
wow, you're full of technical posts this week. Yes it can be done, but I dont want todo it cuz of copyright bullshit.
edit: it prolyl woudl have been betetr to pm me about that
04-15-2003, 06:10 PM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (UberTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by UberTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
wow, you're full of technical posts this week. Yes it can be done, but I dont want todo it cuz of copyright bullshit.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
He asked a simple question, and I answered it. He didnt ask, why or why not did he?
For one. Its extremely hard to crack one of those chips, i havent seen one yet. Can it be done? im sure, but is it worth it? Id say no, Its illegal as hell, and very unethical. Hondata went lengthy measures to insure no one could steal their ****.
wow, you're full of technical posts this week. Yes it can be done, but I dont want todo it cuz of copyright bullshit.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
He asked a simple question, and I answered it. He didnt ask, why or why not did he?
For one. Its extremely hard to crack one of those chips, i havent seen one yet. Can it be done? im sure, but is it worth it? Id say no, Its illegal as hell, and very unethical. Hondata went lengthy measures to insure no one could steal their ****.
04-15-2003, 06:54 PM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
He asked a simple question, and I answered it. He didnt ask, why or why not did he?
For one. Its extremely hard to crack one of those chips, i havent seen one yet. Can it be done? im sure, but is it worth it? Id say no, Its illegal as hell, and very unethical. Hondata went lengthy measures to insure no one could steal their ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for blessing us with yet another grossly wrong technical psot of yours. The hondata fuel maps are stored in plain site inside of the rom. What is protected is the box, not the eprom.
i'm sorry fi i didnt reply to your last pm, i prolyl clsoed itp lanning on answering later and forgot
He asked a simple question, and I answered it. He didnt ask, why or why not did he?
For one. Its extremely hard to crack one of those chips, i havent seen one yet. Can it be done? im sure, but is it worth it? Id say no, Its illegal as hell, and very unethical. Hondata went lengthy measures to insure no one could steal their ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for blessing us with yet another grossly wrong technical psot of yours. The hondata fuel maps are stored in plain site inside of the rom. What is protected is the box, not the eprom.
i'm sorry fi i didnt reply to your last pm, i prolyl clsoed itp lanning on answering later and forgot
04-15-2003, 08:50 PM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (UberTeg)
The box is protected? LOL.
Well, since the average car enthusiast has inclinations completely disparate from the electronics hobbyist, I guess it *is* fairly secure. If more people were into microcontrollers AND cars, I assure you pir8 Hondata would be sold by 8 yo kids in the Hood.
Well, since the average car enthusiast has inclinations completely disparate from the electronics hobbyist, I guess it *is* fairly secure. If more people were into microcontrollers AND cars, I assure you pir8 Hondata would be sold by 8 yo kids in the Hood.
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04-16-2003, 05:48 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (UberTeg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by UberTeg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Thank you for blessing us with yet another grossly wrong technical psot of yours. The hondata fuel maps are stored in plain site inside of the rom. What is protected is the box, not the eprom.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're false sense of intellect never ceases to amuse me
So you are saying you can copy the contents of a hondata eprom and modify it so you do not need the hondata box?
One would assume it would be much easier to copy the chip(s) in the hondata box, then to change their programming data on the eprom. But of course, you wont be able to do that because their chips are read protected.
Thank you for blessing us with yet another grossly wrong technical psot of yours. The hondata fuel maps are stored in plain site inside of the rom. What is protected is the box, not the eprom.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're false sense of intellect never ceases to amuse me
So you are saying you can copy the contents of a hondata eprom and modify it so you do not need the hondata box?
One would assume it would be much easier to copy the chip(s) in the hondata box, then to change their programming data on the eprom. But of course, you wont be able to do that because their chips are read protected.
04-16-2003, 06:33 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Mase)
There is a PIC chip in the Hondata box that cannot be copied. Everything on the ROM is in plain sight, I would assume that on startup one queries the other (rom to box or box to rom) to ensure that the box is connected.
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian
04-16-2003, 06:48 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Firedrake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firedrake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is a PIC chip in the Hondata box that cannot be copied. Everything on the ROM is in plain sight, I would assume that on startup one queries the other (rom to box or box to rom) to ensure that the box is connected.
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>
you're exactly right.
Like ive said, i have yet to see someone copy or hack into the PIC chips. They are whats called OTP (One Time Programmable) packages.
And if someone is going to try to just modify hondata's eprom, they are better off implementing and compiling their own code.
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>
you're exactly right.
Like ive said, i have yet to see someone copy or hack into the PIC chips. They are whats called OTP (One Time Programmable) packages.
And if someone is going to try to just modify hondata's eprom, they are better off implementing and compiling their own code.
04-16-2003, 07:17 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Mase)
What is wrong with people making the same thing and bringing the price down? The whole import market being whored out with parts confuses me? If you can chip and do your own tuning for a fraction of the cost why is that bad? Heck it still blows my mind that some people are paying $1000+ for a manifold and feel good about it.
04-16-2003, 07:28 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Overblown-Teg)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Overblown-Teg »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is wrong with people making the same thing and bringing the price down? The whole import market being whored out with parts confuses me? If you can chip and do your own tuning for a fraction of the cost why is that bad? Heck it still blows my mind that some people are paying $1000+ for a manifold and feel good about it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Theres nothing wrong with making the same thing, but dont copy the work, be ethical and start from scratch. thats beyond the point.
Theres nothing wrong with making the same thing, but dont copy the work, be ethical and start from scratch. thats beyond the point.
04-16-2003, 09:39 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (94goldjungsr)
I dont see how Hondata could own the contents of the eprom on the ecm. All someone would have to do is dissassemble hondata's rom file and write up their own "blue box"
04-16-2003, 09:41 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Firedrake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firedrake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is a PIC chip in the Hondata box that cannot be copied. Everything on the ROM is in plain sight, I would assume that on startup one queries the other (rom to box or box to rom) to ensure that the box is connected.
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>
You would be surprised at what people can do in Taiwan...
Why somebody would want to steal Hondata's intellectual property is beyone me. It's bad enough the import parts market is all whored out........
Brian</TD></TR></TABLE>
You would be surprised at what people can do in Taiwan...
04-16-2003, 09:59 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Like ive said, i have yet to see someone copy or hack into the PIC chips. They are whats called OTP (One Time Programmable) packages. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Most the PIC chips I have laying around are the PIC16Fxxx, which is a flashable chip. There are all kinds.
OTP has nothing to do with being able to take a ROM dump of a chip, whether or not the security bit is set. I'd go into details, but that would be equivalent to ******* Hondata in my mind.
Most the PIC chips I have laying around are the PIC16Fxxx, which is a flashable chip. There are all kinds.
OTP has nothing to do with being able to take a ROM dump of a chip, whether or not the security bit is set. I'd go into details, but that would be equivalent to ******* Hondata in my mind.
04-16-2003, 10:15 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (94goldjungsr)
My guess would be that Uberteg got someone to give him screen shots of the base maps and programmed his ROM chips using those as a baseline. He'll deny all knowledge of course...but it's what I would do rather than reinvent the wheel.
I suppose all you need to do is do a side by side comparison of the ***data maps and the uber maps to see if this is correct.
There is enough information on ***data's web site to get a pretty good start on creating your own fuel and timing maps. If you read the injector sizing section there is some good information there.
You could get a pretty good start on a fueling map by taking into account the MAP, rpm and displacement of the engine and calculating a fuel pulse to give stoich a/f based on the calculated amount of air injested by the engine using those three variables. The only thing that you'd have to dyno correct for is the changing volumetric efficiency of the engine at different rpm and cams.
Timing on the other hand...I don't know of anyway to calculate advance. You pretty much need a basemap.
I suppose all you need to do is do a side by side comparison of the ***data maps and the uber maps to see if this is correct.
There is enough information on ***data's web site to get a pretty good start on creating your own fuel and timing maps. If you read the injector sizing section there is some good information there.
You could get a pretty good start on a fueling map by taking into account the MAP, rpm and displacement of the engine and calculating a fuel pulse to give stoich a/f based on the calculated amount of air injested by the engine using those three variables. The only thing that you'd have to dyno correct for is the changing volumetric efficiency of the engine at different rpm and cams.
Timing on the other hand...I don't know of anyway to calculate advance. You pretty much need a basemap.
04-16-2003, 10:47 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (beeyutch)
Uh...well...ok...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beeyutch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My guess would be that Uberteg got someone to give him screen shots of the base maps and programmed his ROM chips using those as a baseline. He'll deny all knowledge of course...but it's what I would do rather than reinvent the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
All base maps, whether homebrew, UberChip, or Hondata start with a stock Honda fuel/ign map. Nobody is going to re-invent the wheel by starting *completely* from scratch.
If data on an EEPROM is copyright protecable, then Honda should be sueing Hondata very soon.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beeyutch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My guess would be that Uberteg got someone to give him screen shots of the base maps and programmed his ROM chips using those as a baseline. He'll deny all knowledge of course...but it's what I would do rather than reinvent the wheel.</TD></TR></TABLE>
All base maps, whether homebrew, UberChip, or Hondata start with a stock Honda fuel/ign map. Nobody is going to re-invent the wheel by starting *completely* from scratch.
If data on an EEPROM is copyright protecable, then Honda should be sueing Hondata very soon.
04-16-2003, 10:55 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (beeyutch)
so if a friend has hondata, he couldn't burn a basemap for me, and put that chip in a chipped ecu i already have and use a vafc to fine tune the fuel?
04-16-2003, 10:56 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (beeyutch)
I know, but I don't think so.
Hondata doesn't give you that much info on their site. There are a LOT of smart guys out there doing really cool stuff with the ECUs, but most are doing it for their own personal use only.
Hondata doesn't give you that much info on their site. There are a LOT of smart guys out there doing really cool stuff with the ECUs, but most are doing it for their own personal use only.
04-16-2003, 10:57 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (turbodGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so if a friend has hondata, he couldn't burn a basemap for me, and put that chip in a chipped ecu i already have and use a vafc to fine tune the fuel?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm pretty sure zillions of people already tried this. Give it a shot and let us know what happens.
I'm not really a guru, but I believe that even though you can see the data just fine on a Hondata EEPROM, the EEPROM will most likely not function without the box connected.
It's what's inside the box that you need to worry about copying. I never opened mine but I assume it's just a serial controller and somebody else said there is a PIC microcontroller in there. If so, send the thing over to one of these low rent techs in Taiwan and they should be able to duplicate the PIC for you.
Then you will probably get into legal dealings with Hondata if you make it public that you blatantly cloned their product. Whether or not they would have a leg to stand on doesn't matter, they are very successful (apparently) and I am sure they have the resources to help you rack up some nice legal bills.
I'm pretty sure zillions of people already tried this. Give it a shot and let us know what happens.
I'm not really a guru, but I believe that even though you can see the data just fine on a Hondata EEPROM, the EEPROM will most likely not function without the box connected.
It's what's inside the box that you need to worry about copying. I never opened mine but I assume it's just a serial controller and somebody else said there is a PIC microcontroller in there. If so, send the thing over to one of these low rent techs in Taiwan and they should be able to duplicate the PIC for you.
Then you will probably get into legal dealings with Hondata if you make it public that you blatantly cloned their product. Whether or not they would have a leg to stand on doesn't matter, they are very successful (apparently) and I am sure they have the resources to help you rack up some nice legal bills.
04-16-2003, 11:02 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Hatchblack)
I've done it, doesn't work, got a CEL.
Now if you want you can have a custom chip burned for your ECU that rescales the MAP sensor and has adjusted fuel and timing for larger injectors with boost.
THAT works, I know I've done it. Works good
Now if you want you can have a custom chip burned for your ECU that rescales the MAP sensor and has adjusted fuel and timing for larger injectors with boost.
THAT works, I know I've done it. Works good
04-16-2003, 11:09 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (beeyutch)
I don't know much about PIC's, but couldn't someone just take the flash prog off the PIC and flash new PIC's? then reconstruct the hondata curcuitry to rip it off?
Just a thought, I have a hondata, and I opened the blue box to see what was inside, and I noticed the RS232 driver chip (for datalogging) and a PIC. My brother has a base system with only the PIC (no datalogging). Swapping the PIC's and RS232 driver interchanged our functionallity on the blue boxes, so the feature control definatley resides in the PIC's flash.....
Just a thought, I have a hondata, and I opened the blue box to see what was inside, and I noticed the RS232 driver chip (for datalogging) and a PIC. My brother has a base system with only the PIC (no datalogging). Swapping the PIC's and RS232 driver interchanged our functionallity on the blue boxes, so the feature control definatley resides in the PIC's flash.....
04-16-2003, 11:42 AM
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Re: hondata maps in an uberteg chip? (Hatchblack)
... all of this sounds interesting... but why not just go with the uberchip in the first place?... from reading the threads, it has better scaling for boost than "that one company" (3 colums vs 5 columns if i am correct)... unless of course this is for the other features that the other company offers... oh well, personally, i will be ordering an uberchip in the near future... my .02... thanks...
*edit* - typos
Modified by 1.8T_EG at 3:03 PM 4/16/2003
*edit* - typos
Modified by 1.8T_EG at 3:03 PM 4/16/2003