Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
10-09-2012, 10:12 AM
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Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Ok so im going to attempt to type this out as detailed as possible so bare with me.
I just got an em1 with a turbo ls/vtec with gsr internals. Eagle h-beam rods, 10:1 wiseco pistons, 2000 b16 head (totally unsure if its stock or aftermarket valvetrain). Anyways, here is whats going on. The car was having problems idling real low and on the verge of dying. When i gave it ANY sort of gas, it would run perfectly smooth. I tried to adjust the idle screw but with the STR intake and BBK 70mm tb, its a biiiitch to get to. If i was to hold the throttle even the slightest little bit, to say 750rpms it would run perfectly smooth. It drove absolutely flawlessly, except once in a while it would die at a stop sign. Well, on sunday all of a sudden when im driving, it started sounding like a subaru (i was NOT boosting when this started). As if it was running on 3 cylinders. It was waaay down on power, so i didnt push it whatsoever. But it went away almost immediatly. Well I drove it to work yesterday morning and it ran fine on my way to work, hit boost a few times and everything was fine. I go to leave work, and as soon as i get out of the driveway...it turns into a subaru again. So I pull over and shut it off to check and see if there is anything obviously wrong. Checked and re-checked plug wires on the plugs and at the dizzy and its fine. Checked all vacuum lines that i could see, and everything seemed fine. By this time I am almost running late for my court date, so i just limp it home so i can get my other car.
When I get home, the first thing i do is pull the plugs. The #1 plug was a fairly dark brown, but not black. Not what i would consider fouled, by any means. Plugs on #2, #3 and #4 look perfect. Brownish color, almost like that of a paper bag. So i proceed to do a compression test. All the cylinders were 195-200psi. Then I proceed to do a leakdown test, to see if it is anything mechanically wrong. The results were 30% on #1, #2 and #4. All were leaking past the exhaust valve it sounds like. When i tried to do cylinder #3, the engine just wants to turn over. I tried putting all the other plugs in, AND holding the crank pulley bolt. Im using ~80psi to do the leakdown.
I checked to make sure the timing belt didnt jump a tooth, and it appears to be fine. The mark on the crank pulley is about 1/8th inch past the mark on the timing cover, while #1 is on TDC. I know its not uncommon for the mark on the crank pulley to not line up EXACTLY with the timing belt cover, so im assuming it didnt jump a tooth.
From the leakdown test results, id say that i have bent exhaust valves. But that doesnt explain why it ran like **** for a few minutes on sunday and then ran fine..then went back to running shitty again. Im in the process of talking to some tuners, and see what they suggest.
Any input is appreciated, thanks!!
I just got an em1 with a turbo ls/vtec with gsr internals. Eagle h-beam rods, 10:1 wiseco pistons, 2000 b16 head (totally unsure if its stock or aftermarket valvetrain). Anyways, here is whats going on. The car was having problems idling real low and on the verge of dying. When i gave it ANY sort of gas, it would run perfectly smooth. I tried to adjust the idle screw but with the STR intake and BBK 70mm tb, its a biiiitch to get to. If i was to hold the throttle even the slightest little bit, to say 750rpms it would run perfectly smooth. It drove absolutely flawlessly, except once in a while it would die at a stop sign. Well, on sunday all of a sudden when im driving, it started sounding like a subaru (i was NOT boosting when this started). As if it was running on 3 cylinders. It was waaay down on power, so i didnt push it whatsoever. But it went away almost immediatly. Well I drove it to work yesterday morning and it ran fine on my way to work, hit boost a few times and everything was fine. I go to leave work, and as soon as i get out of the driveway...it turns into a subaru again. So I pull over and shut it off to check and see if there is anything obviously wrong. Checked and re-checked plug wires on the plugs and at the dizzy and its fine. Checked all vacuum lines that i could see, and everything seemed fine. By this time I am almost running late for my court date, so i just limp it home so i can get my other car.
When I get home, the first thing i do is pull the plugs. The #1 plug was a fairly dark brown, but not black. Not what i would consider fouled, by any means. Plugs on #2, #3 and #4 look perfect. Brownish color, almost like that of a paper bag. So i proceed to do a compression test. All the cylinders were 195-200psi. Then I proceed to do a leakdown test, to see if it is anything mechanically wrong. The results were 30% on #1, #2 and #4. All were leaking past the exhaust valve it sounds like. When i tried to do cylinder #3, the engine just wants to turn over. I tried putting all the other plugs in, AND holding the crank pulley bolt. Im using ~80psi to do the leakdown.
I checked to make sure the timing belt didnt jump a tooth, and it appears to be fine. The mark on the crank pulley is about 1/8th inch past the mark on the timing cover, while #1 is on TDC. I know its not uncommon for the mark on the crank pulley to not line up EXACTLY with the timing belt cover, so im assuming it didnt jump a tooth.
From the leakdown test results, id say that i have bent exhaust valves. But that doesnt explain why it ran like **** for a few minutes on sunday and then ran fine..then went back to running shitty again. Im in the process of talking to some tuners, and see what they suggest.
Any input is appreciated, thanks!!
10-09-2012, 12:01 PM
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10-09-2012, 12:25 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Thanks for the reply,
Would that show up in a compression or leak down test? Also, the car doesnt smoke at all..I forgot to put that. Even when i limped it home from work, there was no smoke that i could see.
Would that show up in a compression or leak down test? Also, the car doesnt smoke at all..I forgot to put that. Even when i limped it home from work, there was no smoke that i could see.
10-09-2012, 12:33 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Put a mechanical dianosing vacuum gauge on it. What does it read/do? Rev it to a consistant RPM around 2-3k, what does it read/do? (The gauge that is for both questions...) If you don't have one, I am pretty sure AutoZone rents them.
10-09-2012, 05:00 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Ok, so I put the car back together and got a vacuum gauge on it. It reads 20-21in hg consistantly at around 2-3k rpms. I got the car up to operating temp, and went ahead and did another compression test. The results were 200 on 1,2,3, and 205 on 4. BUT when i pulled the plugs, #1 was wet with oil (just did oil change) on it and was SPOTLESS. While cylinders 2,3 and 4 were very black. These plugs are brand new, and have 0 miles on them. I have only ran the car maybe 30 minutes total, with these plugs.
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10-09-2012, 07:11 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Vacuum stays at 20-21 while at idle and at 2-3k. It sounds just like i took a plug wire off, and im running on three cylinders. Blat blat blat blat blat. Thats the best way to describe it.
Stock plug wires. I checked continuity of the wires, and on #1 i have 11.8 ohms and it steadily goes down with each wire to ~6.5 ohms on #4. I put a spark tester on, and i know im getting spark to each plug. Yes im still on stock ignition. And im using NGK BKR6EGP plugs, gapped at .020. And no CEL.
Stock plug wires. I checked continuity of the wires, and on #1 i have 11.8 ohms and it steadily goes down with each wire to ~6.5 ohms on #4. I put a spark tester on, and i know im getting spark to each plug. Yes im still on stock ignition. And im using NGK BKR6EGP plugs, gapped at .020. And no CEL.
10-09-2012, 08:49 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Thats what im afraid of. This is my 3rd honda, and if its ringlands, it will be the third honda ive rebuilt. Getting EXTREMELY tired of it.
I did another leak down test after the car had cooled off for about 45 mins. I let it cool because i didnt want to blast super cool air into a hot cylinder. Not sure if that was smart, or not but i definately got different results then yesterdays cold test. I got 10% on #1, 15% on #2, 20% on #3 and 11% on #4. And with each cylinder i could hear the air hiss through the dipstick tube. If i put my finger over it, it would quiet way down. So its definately leaking air past the rings. Im pretty lost right now. Getting inconsistent leak down results, and beginning to get frustrated.
Thanks for all the replies gentlemen. I appreciate it! Anyone have any suggestions, or other tests to do before i go crazy and yank the motor out?
I did another leak down test after the car had cooled off for about 45 mins. I let it cool because i didnt want to blast super cool air into a hot cylinder. Not sure if that was smart, or not but i definately got different results then yesterdays cold test. I got 10% on #1, 15% on #2, 20% on #3 and 11% on #4. And with each cylinder i could hear the air hiss through the dipstick tube. If i put my finger over it, it would quiet way down. So its definately leaking air past the rings. Im pretty lost right now. Getting inconsistent leak down results, and beginning to get frustrated.
Thanks for all the replies gentlemen. I appreciate it! Anyone have any suggestions, or other tests to do before i go crazy and yank the motor out?
10-09-2012, 08:55 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
I got the same sound when I broke 3 ringlands and cracked 1 sleeve. Either way, you gonna have to disassemble the engine.... lots of patience.
10-10-2012, 04:43 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Are you sure it is even tuned?
It almost looks like a bad tune as well. I can assure you it is not a cylinder head problem with those vacuum results. Also, it doesn't appear to be a solid ring problem either. You say that you "just got it", so obviously you bought somebody else's problem. I have a hard time believing that a ring land is cracked on the Wiseco piston, but I have seen crazier stuff. I can tell you that this probably stemmed from detonation/pre ignition from running WAY too hot of spark plugs. You should be using at least 7's if not 8's or even higher depending on setup (although I doubt 9's because of the Wisecos
)...
So do as suggested, look into your injector clip and wiring. OHM out the injector to verify its readings to be sure its not bad. Don't get too caught up in the leak down test results. Compression and leak down go hand in hand, you have to look at the big picture.
It almost looks like a bad tune as well. I can assure you it is not a cylinder head problem with those vacuum results. Also, it doesn't appear to be a solid ring problem either. You say that you "just got it", so obviously you bought somebody else's problem. I have a hard time believing that a ring land is cracked on the Wiseco piston, but I have seen crazier stuff. I can tell you that this probably stemmed from detonation/pre ignition from running WAY too hot of spark plugs. You should be using at least 7's if not 8's or even higher depending on setup (although I doubt 9's because of the Wisecos
)...So do as suggested, look into your injector clip and wiring. OHM out the injector to verify its readings to be sure its not bad. Don't get too caught up in the leak down test results. Compression and leak down go hand in hand, you have to look at the big picture.
10-10-2012, 07:07 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
I havent unclipped and re-clipped all of them. But i definately will after i test them.
The only proof that i have that it is tuned, is 2 dyno sheets. But neither of them have a date, name of the tuner, or really any sort of information directly linking it to the car. The car was *supposedly* tuned in TrackForged in Troutdale Oregon, and i live by Olympia Washington. Its about 2 hours away from me.
The spark plugs are completely my fault, it HAD 7s. I tried to do as much research as i could before i bought the new set, because i know turbo cars need cooler plugs. I just wanted to put in fresh plugs, so i could elminate that as the problem. But apparently, i didnt do a good enough job researching. I didnt know the higher the number, the cooler. Thanks for the info! The setup is pretty nice.. Its 10:1 pistons (im not 100% sure they are wiseco, but I know they are a reputable brand) pte 6262, TiAL wg and bov, pte fmic, welded charge piping, ID 1000s, BBK 70mm tb, hondata s300. Wait.. Could i just take my ecu out and see what the data log says? I dont have any experiance with EMS, but im sure i could get the hondata software and hook the ecu up to my computer and post a screenshot of the data log..if that would help?
I definately will test resistance on the injectors and see what they say. I sure hope its just an injector issue. If thats the case, ill fix it and go get a new tune ASAP! It would explain why i had this problem once before and then it went away. Internal mechanical problems dont just go away and come back.
Are you sure it is even tuned?
It almost looks like a bad tune as well. I can assure you it is not a cylinder head problem with those vacuum results. Also, it doesn't appear to be a solid ring problem either. You say that you "just got it", so obviously you bought somebody else's problem. I have a hard time believing that a ring land is cracked on the Wiseco piston, but I have seen crazier stuff. I can tell you that this probably stemmed from detonation/pre ignition from running WAY too hot of spark plugs. You should be using at least 7's if not 8's or even higher depending on setup (although I doubt 9's because of the Wisecos)...
So do as suggested, look into your injector clip and wiring. OHM out the injector to verify its readings to be sure its not bad. Don't get too caught up in the leak down test results. Compression and leak down go hand in hand, you have to look at the big picture.
It almost looks like a bad tune as well. I can assure you it is not a cylinder head problem with those vacuum results. Also, it doesn't appear to be a solid ring problem either. You say that you "just got it", so obviously you bought somebody else's problem. I have a hard time believing that a ring land is cracked on the Wiseco piston, but I have seen crazier stuff. I can tell you that this probably stemmed from detonation/pre ignition from running WAY too hot of spark plugs. You should be using at least 7's if not 8's or even higher depending on setup (although I doubt 9's because of the Wisecos
)...So do as suggested, look into your injector clip and wiring. OHM out the injector to verify its readings to be sure its not bad. Don't get too caught up in the leak down test results. Compression and leak down go hand in hand, you have to look at the big picture.
The spark plugs are completely my fault, it HAD 7s. I tried to do as much research as i could before i bought the new set, because i know turbo cars need cooler plugs. I just wanted to put in fresh plugs, so i could elminate that as the problem. But apparently, i didnt do a good enough job researching. I didnt know the higher the number, the cooler. Thanks for the info! The setup is pretty nice.. Its 10:1 pistons (im not 100% sure they are wiseco, but I know they are a reputable brand) pte 6262, TiAL wg and bov, pte fmic, welded charge piping, ID 1000s, BBK 70mm tb, hondata s300. Wait.. Could i just take my ecu out and see what the data log says? I dont have any experiance with EMS, but im sure i could get the hondata software and hook the ecu up to my computer and post a screenshot of the data log..if that would help?
I definately will test resistance on the injectors and see what they say. I sure hope its just an injector issue. If thats the case, ill fix it and go get a new tune ASAP! It would explain why i had this problem once before and then it went away. Internal mechanical problems dont just go away and come back.
10-10-2012, 07:40 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Unless you have an awesome setup in your home you need to leave the ECU in the car and just plug your computer straight into it. The S300 comes with an USB port already for data logging. The software is free to download from Hondata's website.
NGK's are one of the VERY few that the higher the number the colder the plug. Most are the exact opposite where higher the number the hotter the plug (which only makes sense)...
NGK's are one of the VERY few that the higher the number the colder the plug. Most are the exact opposite where higher the number the hotter the plug (which only makes sense)...
10-10-2012, 08:09 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Unless you have an awesome setup in your home you need to leave the ECU in the car and just plug your computer straight into it. The S300 comes with an USB port already for data logging. The software is free to download from Hondata's website.
NGK's are one of the VERY few that the higher the number the colder the plug. Most are the exact opposite where higher the number the hotter the plug (which only makes sense)...
NGK's are one of the VERY few that the higher the number the colder the plug. Most are the exact opposite where higher the number the hotter the plug (which only makes sense)...
Oh, damn! I just dont have a laptop that i can bring out to the shop and hook up to it. Would it be worth my time to borrow a laptop and download the program? I guess I should test the injectors first, since that will be the easiest.
Now that you say that about the plugs, i do remember reading that at some point. But I should look into getting 7s or 8s though?
10-10-2012, 08:18 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Another thing that would make me lean more towards an injector problem is fuel cut. This is my first turbocharged car, so bare with me. Ive spent the last few months researching and reading until my eyes hurt, but theres no substitute for experience. I noticed that i would hit fuel cut pretty often, even at 12psi. And the car is supposed to be tuned on 15psi. The wideband coincidentally stopped reading like 1 day before i traded for the car (surprise), so i have no way of knowing my AFRs. I KNOW its not smart to drive a boosted car without a wideband, but I couldnt NOT drive it. Do you think the fuel cut is another hint towards something injector or atleast fuel related? Flame away.. I know i shouldnt be driving without a wideband, and especially not if im hitting fuel cut. Very dumb on my part. But im ordering a new sending unit on friday.
10-10-2012, 11:40 AM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Yeah who knows.. Gotta love craigslist! I couldnt imagine someone spending $4k+ on a full name brand turbo kit and s300 and then not having it tuned. But im sure stranger things have happened.
10-10-2012, 12:11 PM
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Re: Help! Car runs like a subaru.. Bent valve??
Yea risky move on your part to buy a Already turbo'd honda. ( most are selling it for a reason)
I think the only way i would is if it was a good friend's and i personally worked on it with him. Knew first hand what parts were in it, how it was maintained, and who tuned it.
I think the only way i would is if it was a good friend's and i personally worked on it with him. Knew first hand what parts were in it, how it was maintained, and who tuned it.